On 12/3/2021 at 1:42 PM, Harad the White said:

At least it wasn't "roaring with madness." ?

His focus wasn't on Rand. It was on Mat. They are trying really hard to point audiences away from Rand.

30 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

Lan is too emotional. Too much too soon. I would have preferred him to be portrayed like an Asian Henry Cavill in the Witcher

 

A lot of cool bits have been skipped and replaced with long boring discussions.

 

Great characters seem to have been skipped and the focus has been placed on insignificant background characters.

 

Where is Elayne, Gawin, Galad, Morgase, Min, Bayle Domon, Basil Gill, Gareth Bryne? No lets skip all them because we don't have time and instead lets focus a whole episode instead on Stepin who was barely mentioned and died in the background in the books...

 

Padan Fain has not been shown entering Shadar Logoth and if you think about it, that is one of the most important things to happen in the books.

 

I'm starting to feel like the writers of the series have no concept of what is a key moment in the story and instead are looking for cool moments to grab audiences. Unfortunately I feel it is all coming across a bit beige instead.

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Paean Fain has not been shown entering Shadar Logoth

He was not mentioned entering in the books either (until they captured him in Shienar). But if you listen in EP 2 right before Mat goes exploring you can hear him whistling the same song he’s whistling when he’s watching Rand and Mat in TV in this episode. Everything else you said I wholeheartedly agree with. The whole Stepin hullabaloo was ridiculous 

2 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Another issue, even though I like how Perrin and Egwene did in their part, Perrin didn’t wipe out a handful of Whitecloaks…(Perhaps they will give chase and it happens soon?) if he doesn’t this completely retools his conflict with the axe at least in the start of the story. The warning was that it’s when you start to like it that you should get rid of it. This conflict is just pity and guilt driven vs. a

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more bloodlust drive and honestly a more complex struggle. What is a man who likes/enjoys to kill but a monster? Paired with talking to wolves etc

. I don’t want to be a nitpicker. Please talk me down folks. Haha. Sorry.

you make a really good distinction about the two conflicts. It seems maybe they are playing up the gentle giant angle wrt Perrin. he’s traumatized (who wouldn’t be) but I *think* that could be the struggle in the long run? He’s afraid he’ll accidentally hurt someone again. He hasn’t touched a weapon since that I remember and obviously that can’t last forever

 

but really I have no idea where they’re gonna take it/get over that hump with his development 

7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I'm confident Rafe&Co know their job way better than me. They have not given me any reason to doubt them.

All a matter of perspective.  Given past history - you will get what you want, and I will not.  Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.  ?

10 minutes ago, DELTA said:

you make a really good distinction about the two conflicts. It seems maybe they are playing up the gentle giant angle wrt Perrin. he’s traumatized (who wouldn’t be) but I *think* that could be the struggle in the long run? He’s afraid he’ll accidentally hurt someone again. He hasn’t touched a weapon since that I remember and obviously that can’t last forever

 

but really I have no idea where they’re gonna take it/get over that hump with his development 

My take on the Perrin change is that they’ve portrayed the Whitecloaks as so black and white evil that Perrin killing them in defense of the wolves, like in the book, wouldn’t have the same impact on the audience as it does in Perrin in the books. Today’s audience would be like “that’s completely justified. They were total Nazis and they tried to kill animals.” And it would then be strange from the TV audience’s perspective why this weighed on Perrin so hard the rest of the series. I think the “I accidentally killed my wife in a rage” angle is a little easier for audiences to understand his eventual morality struggle with violence, but I agree it’s a bit ham-fisted.

On 12/2/2021 at 9:20 PM, Wolfbrother31 said:

#4. Liked that we got some WT politic-ing. Disliked that they're making it seem as if they're gonna combine (I'm guessing of course but based on this episode I think it's a pretty reasonable conclusion) Liandrin with Elaida. 

 

 

Came to the same conclusion about this. I know that there are way too many characters (especially all the similarly named Aes Sedai) and that some combinations were going to have to be made for the show, but this seems like too much of a stretch/change that has me worried about how they are going to change the BA and tower split storylines if they end up being a combined character.  

 

Also feel that Alanna is getting combined with Myrelle from the warder conversation with Moiraine. I think they might even be trying to tie Anaiya into Alanna as well with how hard they are pushing her friendship with Moiraine and Alanna's savviness on tower politics which I consider to be Anaiya's realm in the books. I could obviously just be overanalyzing this and really hope that I am wrong as I loved these characters' salidar storylines and really would like for them to get screen time. 

 

And I know they just got to Tar Valon and that they don't want to overwhelm non-bookers with too many Aes Sedai names at once, but I feel like we could have met Myrelle or Anaiya as they were among the very few Aes Sedai that Moiraine was even known to be friendly with in the books and might actually come see her to welcome her home. Or Lelaine coming to scheme with Moiraine about info on Nynaeve or to get info on the gentling and how/why it happened to use against the Reds. I don't hate the warders getting some screen time cause we get very little of that in the books. But for them to be in the White Tower and there to only be the 3 Aes Sedai we have already met and a few novices in a hallway be all we see/meet seems like a mistake to me where a couple of characters could have casually been introduced especially powerful women like a Myrelle/Anaiya/Lelaine/Sheriam and could have showed a little bit more of Daes Dae'mar to set up the Amyrlin episode. We got a tease of the game with Alanna/Moiraine/Liandrin, but I just feel like it was a little bit of a missed opportunity.    

 

 

 

7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I'm confident Rafe&Co know their job way better than me. They have not given me any reason to doubt them.

Just because someone knows a job better than you doesn’t mean you have to agree with their choices or the end result. 
 

For example: M Night Shamylan. He knows directing way better than me. I loved Sixth Sense but hated Lady in the Water. Even though he was even more experienced by the time he made Lady. Knowing the job does not guarantee good results. Just saying…

12 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Just because someone knows a job better than you doesn’t mean you have to agree with their choices or the end result. 
 

For example: M Night Shamylan. He knows directing way better than me. I loved Sixth Sense but hated Lady in the Water. Even though he was even more experienced by the time he made Lady. Knowing the job does not guarantee good results. Just saying…

Of course but I know they know the books and how adaptations work, way better than me. I'm not going to make hasty conclusions and assumptions based on the first season alone. This is a good build-up for future.

Edited December 4, 20213 yr by DaddyFinn
Spelling

1 hour ago, Hudson said:

I cannot overlook the almost complete change of personality of Lan.  Lan is a stone.  A rock.  They have him touching every other person on the shoulder, the crying, the crying out...but the ripping open his shirt at the end.  Terrible IMO.  That is not Robert Jordan's Lan IMO.

I thought giving Lan this emotional scene was a really good way of humanizing him and showcasing the bond of an Aes Sedai and her Warder. It adds a bit of character to a man who is otherwise completely stoic, even if it's a lot different from what we got in the books.
 

But yeah, I do agree the shirt rip was a little bit much. Could've gone without that and the scene would've still had the weight without the weird melodramatic ripping of the shirt.

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I should be getting back to it soon as I am re reading the EOTW but I am sure that story is lifted from the books, might not be Egwene but I do remember an Aes Sedai asking Nyn if she ever had someone who was sick, should not have survived but did and she recalls breakbone fever and how she felt sick the next day. 

It was Moiraine who asked Nynaeve right before they made it to Whitebridge. And “Breakbone fever” was not fatal.  Nynaeve was just young and thought Egwene was dying when she really wasn’t. So yes it’s from the books. Just changed a little. 

1 hour ago, FanofKnotai said:

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Not Valda (who is a regular Lord Captain not a questioner in the books) - Caridin (who I admin I suspect they TV show will conflate with Valda).

You’re right. I confused Valda with Asunawa. However Jaichim Carridin was the Lord Captain that was a DF (the man who called himself Bors at the DF gathering)

While I hate to be pedantic (actually that is untrue - I love to be pedantic) Carridin was a senior questioner (and as you say DF and later Pedron Niall's ambassador in Ebou Dar) while Asunawa is the chief of the questioners (and not identified as DF).

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Of course but I know they know the books and how adaptations work, way better than me. I'm not going to make hasty conclusions and assumptions based on the first season alone. This is a good build-up for future.

Rafe does not exactly have a massive body of work behind him to helm a series of this size.

• 6 writing credits across 11 years consisting of 22 TV episodes and 1 short film(17min).
• 8 TV episodes as a story editor/assistant to writers
• and 35 TV episodes credited as a producer

Not exactly a stunning resume to helm a $10M a episode epic fantasy series.

Edited December 4, 20213 yr by Mailman

3 hours ago, elteryon said:

Enjoyed the Way of the Leaf demonstration that we see here. Thought it portrayed the power and vulnerability of the philosophy as starkly as I pictured while reading the books.

 

One thing I found odd was the comment that "A child's hand can block out the Light, but the Leaf will go back to the earth and be reborn" (paraphrasing). It seems like they're implying the Traveling People don't like the Light? I understand that in this context the WhiteCloaks were abusing their power, but it felt a little stereotypically "religion is bad".

1 minute ago, phoenixtrinity said:

 

One thing I found odd was the comment that "A child's hand can block out the Light, but the Leaf will go back to the earth and be reborn" (paraphrasing). It seems like they're implying the Traveling People don't like the Light? I understand that in this context the WhiteCloaks were abusing their power, but it felt a little stereotypically "religion is bad".

Both sides represent "religion." One was bad.

The massive plot hole around Valda killing Aes Sedai is really starting to grate on me. I get that they are building him up to be one of the big villains of the series but it's been done so poorly. He takes their hands to stop them channeling but then admits they don't need their hands to channel and doesnt seem worried about it? And he openly goads Egwene into channelling when for all he knows she could just kill him with the power? The one power is supposed to be one of the most terrifying things for non-channelers, it's made the Aes Sedai in this adaptation seem incredibly weak.

1 minute ago, FatManAngreal said:

The massive plot hole around Valda killing Aes Sedai is really starting to grate on me. I get that they are building him up to be one of the big villains of the series but it's been done so poorly. He takes their hands to stop them channeling but then admits they don't need their hands to channel and doesnt seem worried about it? And he openly goads Egwene into channelling when for all he knows she could just kill him with the power? The one power is supposed to be one of the most terrifying things for non-channelers, it's made the Aes Sedai in this adaptation seem incredibly weak.

Just because it has not been explained thoroughly does not make it a plot hole

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Just because it has not been explained thoroughly does not make it a plot hole

By all means let me hear your theories around how he's managed to kill so many Aes Sedai? They are the most powerful people on the planet and we literally saw him burn one alive. It was made very clear through the direction of the scene that Valda feels completely safe because they've got no hands, but then states they don't need their hands to channel? It just doesn't stand up.

10 minutes ago, FatManAngreal said:

By all means let me hear your theories around how he's managed to kill so many Aes Sedai? They are the most powerful people on the planet and we literally saw him burn one alive. It was made very clear through the direction of the scene that Valda feels completely safe because they've got no hands, but then states they don't need their hands to channel? It just doesn't stand up.

I am not good at creating theories of my own. Some have suggested here on Dragonmount that he might have a fox-head medallion ter'angreal or one with similar effects. Forkroot is a possibility. Steddings are a possibility. I will Watch And Find Out(WAFO). I don't need to get everything explained immediately.

Unpopular opinion: The Tinkers always felt like sanctimonious cowards to me and the Whitecloaks like smug self righteous killers; both attempting to hide their flaws with a veil of virtue. I dislike both of them equally. That being said, did anyone else find this scene inordinately funny? It’s not poetic justice to me because they both suck in my eyes… hmmm, a satire juxtaposing the failure of both sides? The Tinkers failed again at protecting anyone because of their beliefs and the Whitecloaks were chasing down and hurting innocent people because of their grossly misguided beliefs. 

Edited December 4, 20213 yr by JaimAybara
Punctuation

Really enjoyed the slower pace of this episode. While I was initially frustrated with the amount of screen time dedicated to Stepin, I think it ended up playing out nicely with regards to the workings of an AS-Warder bond.

 

I actually like the depiction of Lan in this episode. I understand he is completely different from the books but it is good to see a move away from the exaggerated "strong-silent type" male hero, and the development of one who can express emotion. Stoicism is so blah.

 

LOVED everything about Loial. Hammed's voice is exactly how I imagined Loial sounding. I know some are unimpressed with his height but really it's not a big deal. Pretty sure Marcus is taller than Josha as well. On a side-note, did RJ have some weird height complex? It is something that is mentioned so often throughout the series. 

Not sure if this has been mentioned but do we think it’s heading more for a Liandrin-Elaida-Siuan merge? Liandrin is merged with the pre-Amyrlin Elaida and Siuan merged with the “crazy Amyrlin” Elaida. Alanna referenced “two powerful enemies” in the WT for Moiraine.

4 hours ago, bryce0110 said:

I thought giving Lan this emotional scene was a really good way of humanizing him and showcasing the bond of an Aes Sedai and her Warder. It adds a bit of character to a man who is otherwise completely stoic, even if it's a lot different from what we got in the books.
 

But yeah, I do agree the shirt rip was a little bit much. Could've gone without that and the scene would've still had the weight without the weird melodramatic ripping of the shirt.

The thing is, I don't think Lan has been portrayed as stoic in the TV series at all.  He's very touchy-feely with other characters (more-so than anyone else, which is completely bizarre), has lots of funny lines and quips, and has zero sense of gravitas, the sorrow and great weight of his sad past, etc. etc..  The TV character is fine and acted pretty well, I think, but it's not book Lan and that feels odd when other characters do seem pretty true to their book counterparts.

Absolutely terrible. Every episode I watch makes me shudder at the absolute failure of the entire production. This doesn't feel like something that RJ would have allowed while he was alive. There's almost nothing left of the story now, no trace of the greatness or vision of the original works.

 

This episode takes more out of the story to replace it with cheap game of thrones writing. What they have done to all of the characters up to this point is disgusting. None of them act the way they should. 

 

Matt was supposed to be happy in the beginning, mischievous. They made him a walking pile of teen angst. He basically didn't change after getting the dagger. Except for that very non book scene with the slaughtered family.

 

Perrin has been absolutely gutted. Nothing left of the original character at this point except the eyes. Reminds me of what they did to Goku in the Dragonball movie. Sad.

 

Rand. Rand basically has no character. They took all his development away to give it to Moiraine. 

 

Lan. They made him a useless, emotional baby. RJ probably rolling in his grave over that. This episode especially killed the soul of his character.

 

Thom. The least gleeful gleeman ever. Even his into is depressing.

 

I have no idea who thought any of this was ok. My wife had to calm me down after this one. Shame on Rafe. This episode especially seems like he's just trying to copy Game of Thrones' senselessly gritty formula for a story that needs humor and rationality to make the characters and story work.

 

This episode will be my last, I can't take anymore of Amazon Rafing the story to death.

After sleeping on this, I think there's a very good chance Elaida and Liandrin are being merged as others have said, and the same for Alanna and Myrelle.

 

Thinking through the implications, who will draw the supergirls from the Tower?  Will it be one of the Forsaken instead..?  Will most of the BA subplot be switched for just Moghedian acting alone?  I presume Liandrin-Elaida will need to stay in the Tower to do the whole tower-schism and become Amyrlin.  It seems odd, if that's the case, that they didn't call the character Elaida as she would be fulfilling Elaida's role more than Liandrin's...

 

With the merging of Alanna and Myrelle I don't actually see too many issues.  It possibly actually adds something to the ending in the cave if its the same character who has passed Lan's bond to Nynaeve that Nynaeve ends up healing to save Rand.  Also possibilities for Elayne and Nynaeve to bond if the same Aes Sedai holds the bonds to the men they both love.  I am slightly concerned that Myrelle's method for helping warders get over the death of their Aes Sedai will translate to Myrelle and her Warders all 'helping' Lan get over Moiraine's loss together given the very heavy handed discussion (foreshadowing?) of this with the conversation between Lan and Steppin in this episode.

2 hours ago, FatManAngreal said:

By all means let me hear your theories around how he's managed to kill so many Aes Sedai? They are the most powerful people on the planet and we literally saw him burn one alive. It was made very clear through the direction of the scene that Valda feels completely safe because they've got no hands, but then states they don't need their hands to channel? It just doesn't stand up.

Well, let me try then.

 

I think he caught Egwene because he suspects she is a less powerful inexperience young would-be novice. He must feel that someone who has not been trained is less dangerous. I assume he learned by trial and error. Now, how he survived the error, I think will be interesting to learn. Maybe he has an artefact that stops channelers from fully touching the Source. That's an option. Right? Right??

 

We don't know enough to make full theories, but ... the questions you ask are what I am curious about too. I dont think my theory is necessarily correct but biyt, will I enjoy finding out what the actual reasons are.

 

Also, I kinda though he cut of the hand with the ring. Symbolicaly stripping them of the Aes Sedai-hood.