23 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

I keep reading comments about the Tigraine scene being over the top (and of course discussions about physics and laws of nature are silly in a fantasy series). But I didn’t think it was over the top ? I just thought it was too dang long??‍♂️  I mean ok she’s a badass Aiel (even though she was unveiled while killing…probably because she only adopted the culture and wasn’t raised with it…in the books Aiel would leave their entire bodies naked if the only cloth they had was needed for the veil). But couldn’t she have dispatched those six dudes quicker so we could have more story in the episode? Maybe a flashback of Tam teaching Rand the void. Since we’re doing flashbacks this episode anyway? ??‍♂️ 

I loved this scene, as "unrealistic" as it may be, for the same reason I love Star Wars lightsaber duels, Indiana Jones action sequences, LOTR battles (where elves and dwarves playfully count their victims), (some) Marvel battle sequences, etc. Also, it seems to fit the Aiel style of fighting described in the books, and if memory serves me correctly, it was mentioned that a single Aiel fighter could handle something like 10 wetlander soldiers. The length of the scene establishes just how determined and incredibly competent these warriors can be without any exposition. Keep in mind, our only exposure to the Aiel up until now was the single dead stone dog trapped in a cage (doesn't exactly inspire awe).

 

I'm purposely not commenting on Tigraine's pregnancy and battle prowess, as I'm a guy (husband and father), and I know a trap when I see one.

3 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I'm purposely not commenting on Tigraine's pregnancy and battle prowess, as I'm a guy (husband and father), and I know a trap when I see one.

Husband and father here...can confirm...

 

 

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by elteryon
Can't type

7 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

You are so right. Promoters are allowed to revel in the sameness when it suits. But Detractors are not allowed to condemn the differences likewise. It’s hypocritical.

 

I personally am leaning heavily towards the detractor camp (pratically standing in the middle). But there are changes I’ve liked in the show. 

 

To be quite honest, I only have an issue with the criticism/detractors when personalised comments about Rafe, his worldview or personal politics are made. It's not always overt but it's pretty obvious when someone has a problem with an "agenda". 

 

Criticisms of changes from the books, being upset with the adaptation for reasons such as drawing out the "mystery" of the dragon, hating Perrin's whole arc this season, being annoyed at how Lan is being portrayed in the show vs. his book character etc., all fine in my view. Plus, it's fun to discuss the criticisms and complaints as long as it's all done in a fair way imo. 

19 hours ago, Masha said:

That part and Lan's line are taken straight from the book. And the book didn't bother explaining how either. 

The book didn’t have to explain how because he just used the trefoil leaf. The show definitely needs to show how he got into the ways because the waygate can only be open by the OP in the show. Unless you’re saying maybe PF can channel…?

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by FanofKnotai

4 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

Strongly disagree. In this context. It’s much harder to just go with the flow because of how drastic and numerous the changes have been. 

Well the upside is if non-readers actually read the books, then they can fill in the blanks that the show has...

So..yeah. More work, but there's a payoff. Not sure if Rafe fans would appreciate it however.

5 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

You are so right. Promoters are allowed to revel in the sameness when it suits. But Detractors are not allowed to condemn the differences likewise. It’s hypocritical.

 

I personally am leaning heavily towards the detractor camp (pratically standing in the middle). But there are changes I’ve liked in the show. 

 

There's a certain amount of "it depends" here I suppose.

 

For example, there isn't a lot of room to discuss if the starting point is "the show must be 100% like the books."   If you allow for some changes then there is plenty of room to discuss whether how the books do this thing better or the show does this other thing better.   

 

At the same time, there is a difference between those that really just want to express their opinion and those that might want to have a discussion.  

 

Personally, I'm saving most of my criticisms until after we've seen the entire season because I think that some changes need to have that greater context to meaningfully evaluate them.   Yes, I do have them. ?

 

A good example of this is how some of the big fan youtuber accounts focused on the sfx after seeing the first two episodes.  Sure the sfx may not be perfect in those episodes but does it get better over time?  After episode eight, would you rather they spent a couple of million fixing issues in episode one or showing us whatever they show us in episode 8?  

 

The criticisms of those who are right in the middle are honestly the most interesting ones to think about to me. 

 

18 hours ago, dwn said:

Also, things like "Rand/Mat/Perrin/Lan have been diminished to make the women look good!!!"

I agreed with most of what you said except this. How can you not see the difference in their importance in the show. The women have definitely been thrust to the fore front of all the episodes. And in the books the women were just as awesome as the men and needed no changing. Show me a male badass from the books and I’ll show you his female equal. But it’s not so in the show (admittedly only “so far” we don’t know what the future holds) because again going back to small unnecessary changes like Marin leading the Two Rivers instead of Bran. Was he even the mayor in the show? 

3 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

I agreed with most of what you said except this. How can you not see the difference in their importance in the show. The women have definitely been thrust to the fore front of all the episodes. And in the books the women were just as awesome as the men and needed no changing. Show me a male badass from the books and I’ll show you his female equal. But it’s not so in the show (admittedly only “so far” we don’t know what the future holds) because again going back to small unnecessary changes like Marin leading the Two Rivers instead of Bran. Was he even the mayor in the show? 

 

That guy didn't even have anything to say in his own inn, Navy Seal Super Saiyan Nyn did. He surely is no mayor.

20 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Yep. You hit the nail right on the head. 

 

The showrunners themselves invited comparisons to the original when they decided to make a Wheel of Time show. Like, the whole reason that the show was greenlit in the first place was that it was based on a massively best-selling series with a devoted fanbase. It's very existence is predicated on the existence and popularity of the original. 

 

And now we're supposed to just pretend like the original doesn't exist? Please. You don't get it both ways. You don't get to profit off the reputation of the original and then exclude it from the conversation surrounding the new version. 

Abso-frickin-lutely!!! I said this like 2 episode ago (not NEALRY as eloquently) when I was in the same discussion with someone else. “You…don’t…get…it…both…ways!!!”
 

Very well said indeed!! 

1 hour ago, FanofKnotai said:

I agreed with most of what you said except this. How can you not see the difference in their importance in the show. The women have definitely been thrust to the fore front of all the episodes. And in the books the women were just as awesome as the men and needed no changing. Show me a male badass from the books and I’ll show you his female equal. But it’s not so in the show (admittedly only “so far” we don’t know what the future holds) because again going back to small unnecessary changes like Marin leading the Two Rivers instead of Bran. Was he even the mayor in the show? 

My comeback to this is three fold, like the land:

 

1. For non-main characters, I think they have intentionally ramped up the power discrepancy between men and women as a means of adding some criticism of our culture into the show. They are showing more of an imbalance to show that being out of balance is a BAD THING!, and should be addressed.  And since it's TV, it basically got to be at a moronic level "Hey Viewer - isn't it bad when men and women aren't equal in society? Huh? Huh?". They're making the message - which is in the books - less subtle, because TV is a less subtle medium

 

2.  For our intrepid heroes, I think the women are getting more emphasis this season to balance out the screen time across the duration of the entire series. Spoilered, since it's not about episode 7

 

Spoiler

If you consider the 3 main males versus the 3 main females, the male arcs get much more page time. Rand and Perrin's arcs runs from book 1 to book 13; Mat's starts in book 1, and actually isn't finished at the end of the series. Egwene's is comparable in scale and duration, but Nynaeve's is effectively complete after curing her block, with one small moment with Egwene later.  And if (as I expect) we lose Camelyn's political fight, Elayne doesn't really get her own character arc anymore, she shares a plot one with Nynaeve, but loses most of her solo growth. So in seasons 5-7, it's really Mat / Perrin / Rand vs Egwene, which is really unbalanced

It pays to spend more time on the plot lines that end sooner up front, so you're not making up stuff from scratch later to try and balance things out more overall. It's one of the things I think Rafe means when he talks about making a more cohesive story, and not just telling the EOTW

 

3. From a business perspective, it pays to emphasize women more than they were in the books. While WOT has by far the biggest female audience of any fantasy series, it still does not compare to the success of female driven television. Especially if they can do it without disrupting the arcs of the main characters

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by Jaysen Gore

On 12/17/2021 at 1:21 PM, Vartija said:

In my head canon I had him finding the baby with Tigraine already dead.

In the book fever dream Tam says he “heard a baby cry” while he was trying to get away from the stink of battle and “…gave birth alone, before she died of her wounds…” which implies she was already dead when he found her. So you’re not wrong. 

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

To be quite honest, I only have an issue with the criticism/detractors when personalised comments about Rafe, his worldview or personal politics are made. It's not always overt but it's pretty obvious when someone has a problem with an "agenda". 

 

Criticisms of changes from the books, being upset with the adaptation for reasons such as drawing out the "mystery" of the dragon, hating Perrin's whole arc this season, being annoyed at how Lan is being portrayed in the show vs. his book character etc., all fine in my view. Plus, it's fun to discuss the criticisms and complaints as long as it's all done in a fair way imo. 

 

Not to mention just like the WoT is not binary and is very complex, so are people opinions.   

 

It is not as if we all fall into Whitecloaks or Aes Sedai camps (which have already been shown to have their own factions within).    Some of us are Tinkers, some of us are Aiel, some of us are Jenn Aiel, some of us are Ogier, some of us are Borderlanders, some of us focus on Daes Dae'mar, and on and on.

 

Alliances shift, and people from different "factions" will agree on some things and disagree on others.

 

Some of us focus on the flaws, but that does not mean they are not aware of the positives, and vice versa.   As long as people realize this is not an Us vs. Them discussion then it is all good.   You cannot have the positive without the negative, the light without the dark.    But there are different levels of light/shading and what is 30% dark to one could be 65% light to another.

 

And if I am honest, half the time I have no need to discuss the flaws or issues that might crop up with an episode, because plenty of others already have.   We all choose to focus or discuss different things, but that does not mean we are not aware of other stuff.   

 

Also a quick shoutout to the Moderators - who keep doing their best at an unenviable task and I really appreciate all their efforts.

 

41 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

The women have definitely been thrust to the fore front of all the episodes. And in the books the women were just as awesome as the men and needed no changing. Show me a male badass from the books and I’ll show you his female equal. But it’s not so in the show (admittedly only “so far” we don’t know what the future holds) because again going back to small unnecessary changes like Marin leading the Two Rivers instead of Bran. Was he even the mayor in the show? 

 

This is mostly true. We haven't had a single competent male hero moment yet... Except for #TvThom (my favorite character)... Who hopefully we get a lot more of in S2! 

 

Whether it's warders commenting that Lan is a terrible horseman or Lan being tracked without explanation or Perrin having no personality and ax-cidently killing his wife or needing to be saved by Egwene or Rand being a background character through most of S1. Or Matt having terrible parents and picking up a dagger in a creepy city. Or...or...or. 

 

Now, one can speculate why (along the lines of agenda and the showrunner's background/worldview) but it would be fairer to stick to the story they're telling for Tv. And from the opening lines and scenes "What arrogance" ... Women in this world are awesome and men suck. 

 

But I think we will have to have some male hero moments in the future because now that they're finally done with the "who's the Dragon??" MESS (which I've said from before even Ep1 was their MAIN problem with their writing). Now they can focus more on Rand, Matt, and Perrin as central characters & stop drastically changing lore (that doesn't have to do with production cost or needing to condense the story)  Hopefully. 

 

IF not...IF S2 is more of the same...

Then I am convinced that it will go down as a monumental failure. 

 

So far, with this episode included,  I'd say overall they've done a C- job of adapting the WoT because:

A) they're getting the characters personality traits down and acting well.

B) They're hitting a number of similar plot points but condensing.

C) They are "showing" us some cool stuff we haven't seen before and making some good changes (more Logain, Tigraine fighting and giving birth, Whitecloaks being a legit threat)

D) Romantic relationships & tensions are more believable than the books. 

 

But they're also: 

 

A) Butchering a bunch of lore and character backgrounds. [The Dragon can be female? The Dragon could be 5 people? Those present at the Eye, not the Dragon will die? Channeling to open the Ways? Matt having crappy parents? Perrin killing a wife? Perrin loving Egwene?]

 

B) Channeling is pretty generic and disappointing. 

 

C) Giving lots of screen time to characters that ...didn't/don't matter all the much overall to the story -books or tv-  (I'm looking at you Steppin).

 

D) Failing to develop characters or explain necessary elements for new people. 

 

E) Have some wonky and not cool CGI moments

 

F) Having no clear antagonist (other than Valda, who might be dead?) all the way through S1.

 

Considering Covid and that they had a main actor leave part way through S1 ... They've made the most of difficult year/task. C- and a definite S2 is still passing. I'll come back. 

 

But S2 has got to step it up to be at least B+ quality. 

 

We need more of the Blood Snow quality cold opens. We need Forsaken and Padan Fain to get significant screen time. We need some significant screen time with Rand from Rand's perspective. We need Matt's new actor to be awesome and some time there. Perrin needs a personality. Lan needs to somehow be recovered and be seen as the most BA swordsman in the World. We need more WT politics. And we need Seanchan. 

And Wahlah. B+ ! 

 

I have high hopes. 

I also hope they saved a bunch of CGI budget for the finale and it's cool! 

6 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

In the book fever dream Tam says he “heard a baby cry” while he was trying to get away from the stink of battle and “…gave birth alone, before she died of her wounds…” which implies she was already dead when he found her. So you’re not wrong. 

And let me toss this out - here's at least once where the TV show went out of the way to make a man look WAY BETTER than he was in the novel. Tam is no longer just a man willing to look after an orphaned baby found on a battlefield; he is a man willing to lay down arms in combat so that an enemy would not go through giving birth alone, in addition to raising the child of an enemy.

14 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

For our intrepid heroes, I think the women are getting more emphasis this season to balance out the screen time across the duration of the entire series. Spoilered, since it's not about episode 7

Unnecessary had he stuck to the books.

8 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

My comeback to this is three fold, like the land:

This was the best part of your response ?

 

However, the way you explained the screen time makes since and is very logical. It still doesn’t explain the superfluous changes like Raen/Ila, Marin/Bran, Algemar being rude instead of reverent….etc. 

 

because in the books these things by no means lessened the women. The books imo were more balanced in terms of power for men and women. The Amyrlin, Queen Morgase, Berelain, the Queen of Ghealdan, the wise ones, the Aes Sedai, the queen of Saldea, the empress of the Seanchan. The Children of the Light, the king of Shienar, the High Lords of Tear, the king of Cairhein, Pedron Niall, the clan chiefs, king of Tarabon(?)…I could go on. But what I’m saying is as far as power in the books, neither makes nor females had any sort of advantage. And the show is not portrayed that, again imo. They have portrayed the men to be lesser than the women BY FAR. 

11 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

In the book fever dream Tam says he “heard a baby cry” while he was trying to get away from the stink of battle and “…gave birth alone, before she died of her wounds…” which implies she was already dead when he found her. So you’re not wrong. 

I think the Episode 7 flashback was actually an improvement (although the way RJ reported the sequence works fine in the book).

 

The WOT team need to "show...don't tell" many, many things, and they need to do so with only a handful of episodes at their disposal. Plus, they need to keep the audience engaged (which is difficult if all you get are regular information dumps).

 

So we learn about the Dragon's heritage, Rand's adoptive father (Heron-marked blade and all), the battle prowess of the Aiel...plus, we get a terrific, nicely choreographed action sequence (which bodes well for the show's future). And the best part? Not a single spoken word.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

And let me toss this out - here's at least once where the TV show went out of the way to make a man look WAY BETTER than he was in the novel. Tam is no longer just a man willing to look after an orphaned baby found on a battlefield; he is a man willing to lay down arms in combat so that an enemy would not go through giving birth alone, in addition to raising the child of an enemy.

Absolutely. He's a good dude.

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by Chivalry

4 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I think the Episode 7 flashback was actually an improvement (although the way RJ reported the sequence works fine in the book).

 

The WOT team need to "show...don't tell" many, many things, and they need to do so with only a handful of episodes at their disposal. Plus, they need to keep the audience engaged (which is difficult if all you get are regular information dumps).

 

So we learn about the Dragon's heritage, Rand's adoptive father (Heron-marked blade and all), the battle prowess of the Aiel...plus, we get a terrific, nicely choreographed action sequence (which bodes well for the show's future). And the best part? Not a single spoken word.

 

 

I definitely enjoyed the Tigraine scene more than most of the other scenes so far. My only complaint is that it was maybe too long.  Like all the same stuff with just less screen time. If she killed those six dudes and had the baby in 3 mins instead of over 5 (Amys could have done it in 3 ?), it would have been ok with me.  I was simply confirming their suspicions about believing she was already dead in their head while reading the books

On 12/17/2021 at 12:04 PM, Reader said:

Although the way season 1 has gone I don't think Teslyn's characater is important enough to make it into the show. 

I’m sure we all thought the same about Stepin ??‍♂️

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by FanofKnotai

On 12/17/2021 at 12:17 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The two large scars on Lan's back in this episode appear to be missing from the bath scene in E1?

He got them at Stepin’s funeral. That’s why he was screaming 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXoJ5YIlNHy/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

Stunt coordinator posted a "previs" of the blood snow fight with original stunt crew. Some stuff was changed/removed in the final scene. Awesome stuff!

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

This was the best part of your response ?

 

However, the way you explained the screen time makes since and is very logical. It still doesn’t explain the superfluous changes like Raen/Ila, Marin/Bran, Algemar being rude instead of reverent….etc. 

 

because in the books these things by no means lessened the women. The books imo were more balanced in terms of power for men and women. The Amyrlin, Queen Morgase, Berelain, the Queen of Ghealdan, the wise ones, the Aes Sedai, the queen of Saldea, the empress of the Seanchan. The Children of the Light, the king of Shienar, the High Lords of Tear, the king of Cairhein, Pedron Niall, the clan chiefs, king of Tarabon(?)…I could go on. But what I’m saying is as far as power in the books, neither makes nor females had any sort of advantage. And the show is not portrayed that, again imo. They have portrayed the men to be lesser than the women BY FAR. 

This is what I meant by less subtle than in the novels. In the novels, the AS are THE power in the land, and control all, even the Whitecloaks (If the Amyrlin summoned the Lord Captain Commander, he would come, and he would kneel, even if he spent the trip there plotting to assassinate her). Every power behind a throne is an AS. Even in the TR, the women's council is more powerful than the men's, making decisions the men don't know about, for their own good (Don't worry their bearded little heads, pat, pat, pat). Morgase complains she isn't going to kneel and get her crown back from the AS, and Elaida brings her up short. And so adapting our moderator's signature, while others may lead, a woman Commands.  But showing that power imbalance only at the top doesn't work if you don't spend enough time in cultures to notice it.  So they've spread it downward across the cultures at every level to make it more obvious that the women, and mostly only women are in control, in everything but war.

 

In other words, they have made clear at every level the implicit bias inherent in Randland's power dynamic that men are not to be trusted.

 

Do I think they needed to go as far as they did, no, but I also don't know if the non-reading audience is picking up on the imbalance, even as obvious as they've made it

And a follow up to what i just posted - I suspect they changed Agelmar to be less respectful because they're not going to show Morgase chaffing at the AS leash, and some leader in power needs to be seen to. Agelmar's the only one we meet this year.

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

This is mostly true. We haven't had a single competent male hero moment yet... Except for #TvThom (my favorite character)... Who hopefully we get a lot more of in S2! 

 

Whether it's warders commenting that Lan is a terrible horseman or Lan being tracked without explanation or Perrin having no personality and ax-cidently killing his wife or needing to be saved by Egwene or Rand being a background character through most of S1. Or Matt having terrible parents and picking up a dagger in a creepy city. Or...or...or. 

 

Now, one can speculate why (along the lines of agenda and the showrunner's background/worldview) but it would be fairer to stick to the story they're telling for Tv. And from the opening lines and scenes "What arrogance" ... Women in this world are awesome and men suck. 

 

But I think we will have to have some male hero moments in the future because now that they're finally done with the "who's the Dragon??" MESS (which I've said from before even Ep1 was their MAIN problem with their writing). Now they can focus more on Rand, Matt, and Perrin as central characters & stop drastically changing lore (that doesn't have to do with production cost or needing to condense the story)  Hopefully. 

 

IF not...IF S2 is more of the same...

Then I am convinced that it will go down as a monumental failure. 

 

So far, with this episode included,  I'd say overall they've done a C- job of adapting the WoT because:

A) they're getting the characters personality traits down and acting well.

B) They're hitting a number of similar plot points but condensing.

C) They are "showing" us some cool stuff we haven't seen before and making some good changes (more Logain, Tigraine fighting and giving birth, Whitecloaks being a legit threat)

D) Romantic relationships & tensions are more believable than the books. 

 

But they're also: 

 

A) Butchering a bunch of lore and character backgrounds. [The Dragon can be female? The Dragon could be 5 people? Those present at the Eye, not the Dragon will die? Channeling to open the Ways? Matt having crappy parents? Perrin killing a wife? Perrin loving Egwene?]

 

B) Channeling is pretty generic and disappointing. 

 

C) Giving lots of screen time to characters that ...didn't/don't matter all the much overall to the story -books or tv-  (I'm looking at you Steppin).

 

D) Failing to develop characters or explain necessary elements for new people. 

 

E) Have some wonky and not cool CGI moments

 

F) Having no clear antagonist (other than Valda, who might be dead?) all the way through S1.

 

Considering Covid and that they had a main actor leave part way through S1 ... They've made the most of difficult year/task. C- and a definite S2 is still passing. I'll come back. 

 

But S2 has got to step it up to be at least B+ quality. 

 

We need more of the Blood Snow quality cold opens. We need Forsaken and Padan Fain to get significant screen time. We need some significant screen time with Rand from Rand's perspective. We need Matt's new actor to be awesome and some time there. Perrin needs a personality. Lan needs to somehow be recovered and be seen as the most BA swordsman in the World. We need more WT politics. And we need Seanchan. 

And Wahlah. B+ ! 

 

I have high hopes. 

I also hope they saved a bunch of CGI budget for the finale and it's cool! 

I rate the show higher, but I think your recommendations for improvement are all solid. Although they're already filming the 2nd season, editing will be an important part of the process. I'm hopeful the WOT team gets it right.