Also I can help Moiraine with her “not lie”

 

Rand died. 

 

The Dragon Lived. 

 

Easy Peezy

I think I'm hopping onto the bandwagon that this is no longer an adaptation of the books but is just based on the books in some way. This isn't just condensing and restructuring which I could accept for much of the season. All these lore changes are adding up to quite a bit. And some of my complaints might seem petty. I know they don't want to over-lore the readers, but certainly the could do more than this. Why refer to LTT as the Dragon Reborn and not just the Dragon? Why not mention that they were in a losing war with the Shadow? Why miss the incredibly obvious opportunity for Moiraine to mention that she can't teach him because the one half of the power he wields is different than what she does? Why does Rand "feel the madness" and not the corruption?

 

Those things bother me more than them giving the Tarwin's Gap power destruction to the girls, or relocating the Horn of Valere. Those things I can accept as condensing and adapting. But why bother with all the other little changes? I don't think it'd be overburdening watchers to drop easy hints like "oh there was a war going on 3000 years ago." Or why the Wheel seems to be one repeating age instead of seven (or some unspecified amount).

 

I'm not done with the show. I need to cool off a bit, rewatch it later. And I realize everything in my list sounds small. But I really feel like they've done more than condense and adapt the plot. It feels like they've altered the foundation.

 

I'll have to cool off a bit. Out of control of the show, makes me wonder what they're going to do with Mat. Definitely feels like Mat was always planned to be there (though what they'd have done with Perrin in that case I've no idea). I mean, I have an idea of where Mat's plot could easily pick up, but I'm not sure how they'll weave it all together. We're definitely going into mixed TGH and TDR territory, if you ask me.

Edited December 24, 20213 yr by Agitel

Also Rand didn’t run away. 

 

He made a heroic choice based on the knowledge he had. 

 

He thought it was the Last Battle. He beat the DO. And he’s gonna go nuts and kill everyone. 

 

That said Moiraine really shoulda seen the cuendillar earlier. But hey we need a “quick go find the DR” plot hook i suppose lol. 

 

@Agitel

 

To be fair “Adaptation” includes both sets. Direct adaptations. And Changed ones. 

 

It is like the Muppet Christmas Carol vs Scrooged. 

 

Both are adaptations. Both have elements. But one is far more true to the source. 

 

I still enjoy them both. 

25 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I've been very positive thus far, really enjoyed the adaptation, flaws and all...but this one hurts. 

That is where I am at. I will keep watching, and sometime before season 2 do a binge watch, but even with all the supercharge changes it felt meh for a finale. 

That was definitely still Ishy we saw. As much as I'm ticked at some of the alterations to the setting, I'll just point out that EOTW was really very vague about who Rand confronted, too.

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Well for the biggest things:

 

I don't think Moiraine is stilled just shielded from the power with the shield tied off. There was clearly a shield going inside her and Ishamael's hand movement made me think he was tying off a knot.

 

Yes. I think you are correct.

 

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

They're 100% baiting with the Loial death right? I think Hammad is filming for season 2 anyway, and they didn't show him actually die just get stabbed. Think Uno lives as well.

 

Yes.   Although, I think that was supposed to happen to Mat originally but since he was not available, they had to pick someone to take the wound.

 

 

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

There's a lot of changes from the book but that was rather expected all things considered. Ishamael was fantastic in my opinion. LTT not so much. I don't get the switch in roles between him and Latra Posae Decume. It doesn't matter much I just feels like it doesn't give LTT the stature he deserved.

 

 

I think that this was to tie into Moiraine's "arrogance" line from episode one.  And it is the kind of thing that can be used to show the unreliability of the Aes Sedai or lay the conceptual groundwork for how everything ends.

 

  

 

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

Yeah, loved the cold open and all the Old Tongue dialogue. Ishy was fantastic and I loved that his weapon was temptation not a One Power smack down. And Rand rejected his “perfect” world because he knew that’s not what Egwene wanted. 
 

Didn’t like Amalisa going super saiyan like that. I would not give a half trained channeler like her control of a circle. That’s what happens when you don’t know what you are doing! 

 

I think they were going for a mini-manetheren thing there.   I found it rather meh.

 

 

 

On a side note, Rafe seems to be leaning heavily on the "woman channeler who burns out wielding too much Saidar" motif.  Perhaps that's one reason he felt it necessary to have Moraine to explain in detail the story of the last Queen of Manetheren. In scriptural analysis, this would be considered a typology, I suppose.

I thought LTT is the Tamyrlin Seat when he is alive? And how does LPD ever know the Dark One may taint the source? She thought it's a risky plan, which is true, but that's all they know. I hope a AoL flash back could clear all the "arrogance of men" nonsense, but it only makes it worse. With the peaceful and sci-fi view outside the window and LTT's poor arguments, who would suspect the Light is already badly losing. The actor also does not give me the correct vibe. LTT is wise, kind, has published tons of books, well respected all over the world, keeps all sorts of authority and fame under his belt, self-assured to the extend of arrogance, and has also lived for 400 years. The acting is more like a young man at Rand's age.

 

These are only the complaint I have for the first 5 minutes. I have a long list to go on. For example, what's the point of burning Nyn out just to let Egy heal her? Is Nyn dead, or stilled, or simply hurt? If it's the last case, then we should see the other 3 women also being alive for S2, because if Egy can heal such a wound, than surely Nyn can heal the others as well. And if Egy is healing death or stilling...... well, I'm put nothing past the show now.

 

Lan surely has done a great job after Ep1.

- Loss E4 in SL,

- tracked by Nyn,

- killed by Logain,

- failed to watch Stepin from suicide,

- let Moraine step into the way first,

- his parents were "slaughtered" and he was "smuggled out",

- bedded Nyn and next day imply he'll not wed her,

- tricked by Moiraine,

- couldn't track Rand and Moirain by himself, and literally did nothing through the entire Ep8.

I admit most of these things are somewhat reasonable in their own sense. But by putting all of them together and taking away all his OP moments in the book (such as riding alone into a bunch of monsters and coming back alive), the most badass non-channeller man in the book does seem pretty incapable in the show.

 

If Moiraine originally thought Egy is the DR, then does she intend that sa'angreal for her and now sa'angreals can be used by both males and females? I also notice that the show itself never explained saidin and saidar, and their are two different sources of the One Power. It is explained in short animes but that's far from enough. The magic system is something that needs to be explicitly explained in the show, and this is the world building you need for S1, not some random bloody Aes Sedai and Warder bond which is only a side system and doesn't come into significance much later. Moreover even for the bond, they never explain outright it's actually a magical thing, and I see some of the non-book readers are quite confused by it.

 

Back to saidin/saidar, in this episode Ishy actually told Rand to surrender to the power, which is exactly the opposite to the way men channels. And Rand IS channeling Saidin,  because we can see the taint. However the animated shorts actually put it in the right way, so I don't understand what the show is doing here. Here are some guesses:

1. Ishy is misleading Rand. Not likely in my opinion. Unless he trusts Rand, as a first time learner, can break the seals for him while "being rushed away by the raging torrent of Saidin".
2. Rand is not only channeling Saidin. Which means he may be using Saidar or the True Power along with it. Though I also couldn't remember any "surrender" involved in using the True Power. 
3. Show male channelers simply also surrender to the OP when they channel. Nobody ever promised the show and the animated shorts follow the same rules.
4. The first three guesses are all based on the assumption that Rafe and the writers have a clear magic system in their head, no matter how it differs from the book. It also may be the case that they simply do not know what they are writing, even though "every change is well thought through".

I can keep on with Aglemar's poor defence strategies and Seanchen throwing waves at an empty shore with mountains at it's back. But it'll go on for ever.

Edited December 24, 20213 yr by Indil
Changed the font

And I have to say...Loial ?... even if it's just a feint.

17 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

@Agitel

 

To be fair “Adaptation” includes both sets. Direct adaptations. And Changed ones. 

 

It is like the Muppet Christmas Carol vs Scrooged. 

 

Both are adaptations. Both have elements. But one is far more true to the source. 

 

I still enjoy them both. 

 

Fair. I enjoy a lot of looser adaptations of things I've read, too. In most cases where that happens, like A Christmas Carol, I already have a dozen strict adaptations to choose from, so getting a novel take is fine by me. The show, which again I'm not saying I'm done with, is just not what I wanted.

 

And before someone accuses me of needing a "page for page" adaptation... please don't. When I say things like I'm fine with the horn being moved, or the changes in episode four to see Logain, or with the girls linking to destroy the trolloc horde, or that I'm fine with smooshing TGH and TDR plot arcs into one, and I'm even okay with restructuring Ishy's confrontation with Rand... I think it's pretty clear I don't need page for page. Just some of these alterations to core principles (in my not humble enough opinion) to Jordan's setting are not sitting well with me. I don't think those alterations are necessary to condense and adapt the story, or to make it intelligible to show watchers.

 

But you know what they say about opinions... *shrugs*

 

I'll probably be a bit more positive on rewatch. But still.

 

I couldn't help but be a little hyped for the Seanchan. Not sure how practical it is to flood a small coastal village when your goal is to conquer and bring order to places like that. Oh, there I go again.

Edited December 24, 20213 yr by Agitel

25 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I'm starting to wonder if we might find out some day that the actor who played Mat decided to leave after reading the scripts for the last 2 episodes and said "um, no thanks."

... and wouldn't it be like Mat, to have the last laugh, after all?? Great stuff

3 minutes ago, Indil said:

the most badass non-channeller man in the book does seem pretty incapable in the show.

If he survives by the time he duels Demandred...well, lets face it, it won't be him. Probably be Nynaeve oe Egwene.

I honestly find it much easier to excuse big changes which are done out of necessity. You're trying to fit in as much as you can and sometimes that means restructuring things.

 

The small changes are what annoy me. So pretty much all of the cold open just annoyed me, because I'm just failing to see why bother changing the perspective on the Strike at Shayol Ghul. But there's plenty of small details like that, a lot of them to do with Lan and Perrin.

1 minute ago, Dead Warder said:

That answer, with all respect, is in every episode opening:

 

 

Yeah, just like how since Roddenberry’s death all Star Trek good or bad is based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry lol. 

 

Its also another reason Im fine with the series. 

 

Its why I was and am fine with the game Based on it. 

 

Cuz its part of the tapestry. 

23 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I'm not done with the show. I need to cool off a bit, rewatch it later. And I realize everything in my list sounds small. But I really feel like they've done more than condense and adapt the plot. It feels like they've altered the foundation.

 

I'll have to cool off a bit.

... also describes me, this night.

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

If he survives by the time he duels Demandred...well, lets face it, it won't be him. Probably be Nynaeve oe Egwene.

At this point I feel like they should have made Nynaeve the Dragon and that would've been that. Then I could have quit without looking back. Now I'm probably going to agonize over Season 2 too.

Just now, Kelin said:

At this point I feel like they should have made Nynaeve the Dragon and that would've been that. Then I could have quit without looking back. Now I'm probably going to agonize over Season 2 too.

Don't watch.

All you're doing is encouraging some bad feels for yourself, and adding to viewrship that should be dropped. (Surely there's other things that you'd prefer doing..or watching)

I'm still on board, but I went in expecting some pretty radical changes. From the beginning I've tried to see the WOT TV universe, and the WOT book universe as totally separate entities, and it has worked pretty well most of the time. 

 

That said, this episode was a weird one. It probably caused more mental friction for me than any previous episode. There were a lot of moments where my book knowledge was clashing with what was happening on screen.

 

In the end I still found it quite entertaining but I don't think it was a homerun. Some moments didn't hit right.

 

Loved everything with Rand and Moiraine's story. That was all solid to me.

 

Ishy was great, best thing in the episode.

 

Pretty sure Moiraine isn't stilled. Just shielded and tied off.

 

Perrin needs to drop the way of the leaf ASAP---the way of the leaf makes for boring TV.

 

Enjoyed the Tarwin's gap battle, including the burnout aspect. I know it violates book lore, but it worked on screen, and was a good way to showcase the danger of the one power.

 

The Nynaeve death fakeout was a bit too far--- it felt like they've gone to that well a few too many times. .

 

Does Egwene have some weird special power to resurrect the dead in the show? The way it played on screen didn't feel like normal healing. There was just a tiny thread of the power.

 

I feel 100% confident that Loial isn't dead. He's replacing Mat's storyline here and will go hunting for the horn with Perrin.

 

The most surprising thing about this show to me continues to be the pulpy sensibility. They absolutely don't shy away from leaning into melodrama and old school TV tropes. I actually enjoy that sort of vibe, so it's not an issue for me. But I certainly didn't expect it going in.

 

Overall, this felt like the episode where they really sever ties with any attempt to follow the book story timeline. I imagine we'll continue to see the book inspiration behind many parts of the show, but from here on out it will be two books per season, sometime three, playing out simultaneously, with much more drastic storyline changes and more compression. It should make things easier because it will be harder to directly compare it to the source, and the writers will have more freedom to adapt the structure for effective delivery within the constraints of the TV medium.

 

Overall I would give the season somewhere between 7.5 and 8.5... Best episodes were 7, 5, 4, and 3. Weakest episodes were 1 and 6. Episode 8 is pretty much on par with episode 2 for me, right in the middle.

 

I suspect a lot of non-book readers would rank the episodes very differently. Episode 6, for instance, was very well done and had a ton of great scenes. My problems with it mostly stem from my book knowledge. I knew what I was missing out on, basically.

 

I need to marathon the whole season soon and see how it hits me in binge mode.

Edited December 24, 20213 yr by NinjaPowers975

I really liked the Rand dream moment when Moiraine gets knifed. Really spooky. And then it just kept getting spookier from there. This was a terrifying episode.

 

Untrained channelers burning out in a circle? Oh no big deal, just watch our heads cook from the inside out. No biggie. ? (No, I don't think Nynaeve was ever actually dead.)

 

I liked the moments with Ishamael and Rand. In the books I always enjoyed how much more Ishamael was prepared for this moment than Rand was.

 

It looks like The Eye Of The World was adapted to be a seal imprisoning the Forsaken (Ishamael specifically). Rand was tricked by Ishmael in this battle. He broke a seal and freed Ishamael.

 

Oh, Mat wasn't actually in the episode. Huh. I am very interested in how his story is going to be told going forward.

 

In general, I feel like they turned it up to 11 with this episode in terms of tone and pacing, especially the second half of the episode.

Edited December 24, 20213 yr by VooDooNut
made a Matstake

I usually watch twice before posting, but I'm going to post now while I'm still processing. Before I start, I'll state that I'm someone who is fine with there being changes to the story (e.g. that it is a retelling and not a 1-to-1 adaptation). But I want the changes to resonate with me (recognizing that what may resonate with me may not resonate with others).

 

Loved:

*Nynaeve and Lan scene (their relationship stuff)--I knew it was going to be a slow burn...

*Ishy and Rand stuff. I liked this better than what happened at the Eye of the World in the book. Also, these scenes set up important stuff (Rand can either save or break the world), and it resonated with the spirit of the books for me--Ishy felt true to character, there was stuff about how reality could or might be (taken from flickers, Egwene's Accepted test, etc.). I also loved Rand's moment of recognizing he wants for Egwene what she wants for her life (not what he wants from her)--this felt really powerful to me.

*Padan Fain showing up and doing something evil! I really like the show version of Padan Fain.

*The Seanchan looked so intense. My partner wanted to know if they were evil... ?

 

Liked/am intrigued by:

*The change to Moiraine's arc (still? shielded? what will happen next?)--am intrigued

*Loial and Min, but want more of both. ?

*Battle scenes

*Mostly liked the women channeling at Tarwin's Gap scene because I think it showed the temptation/danger of the One Power. The whole Nynaeve healing was the only piece that I didn't like.

 

????/ambivalent:

*Super glad the Age of Legends showed up in the Prologue, and liked that they showed it was an advanced world this early on, but this scene felt like it could have been more powerful/done more. I am missing that we didn't get the book 1 prologue this season (was really hoping we'd get it in some form this episode) because it's such an emotionally powerful scene and it would have fit with other stuff they were setting up this episode with Rand (save/break the world stuff, for example). Even if they didn't give us the original prologue, I felt like they could have given us a more emotionally powerful (AoL) cold open.

*Not sure what they're doing with Mat. I get that their choices are being at least partly affected by the actor leaving, but I'm not sure what I think about where they're taking his character. Will have to wait and see...

 

Disliked:

*I felt like they needed a powerful Rand channeling moment that revealed he was exponentially more powerful than anyone we've seen channel thus far. I didn't necessarily need the Rand Tarwin's Gap moment, but I wanted to *see* what it meant for him to be the Dragon Reborn.

*There were little things that bothered others that also didn't quite make sense to me--Nynaeve explaining tracking Moiraine to Lan? the Horn of Valere at Fal Dara?

 

Really liked a lot of the episode, but I didn't love it as much as a few other episodes. But I need to rewatch.

11 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I honestly find it much easier to excuse big changes which are done out of necessity. You're trying to fit in as much as you can and sometimes that means restructuring things.

 

The small changes are what annoy me. So pretty much all of the cold open just annoyed me, because I'm just failing to see why bother changing the perspective on the Strike at Shayol Ghul. But there's plenty of small details like that, a lot of them to do with Lan and Perrin.

You hit on what I am feeling, most of the big changes did not bother me, although  the fan in me was sad not to see some of my favorite scenes.  It is the small things like Lan teaching rand to use his sword. 
Tom teaching rand to play the flute or mat to juggle.  Moiraine's knowledge and the prophesies', she  even in the show spent 20 years searching and preparing, but they do not show that. 
 

3 minutes ago, Seraphine said:

Disliked:

*I felt like they needed a powerful Rand channeling moment that revealed he was exponentially more powerful than anyone we've seen channel thus far. I didn't necessarily need the Rand Tarwin's Gap moment, but I wanted to *see* what it meant for him to be the Dragon Reborn.

I was thinking about this too, but Rand did break cuendillar, which they say right after is supposed to be unbreakable. That is pretty powerful in a way, even if it's understated.

2 minutes ago, Seraphine said:

 

*I felt like they needed a powerful Rand channeling moment that revealed he was exponentially more powerful than anyone we've seen channel thus far. I didn't necessarily need the Rand Tarwin's Gap moment, but I wanted to *see* what it meant for him to be the Dragon Reborn.

 

That was what bothered me the most. All the build-up for the finale (dropped phrases like "raging sun", "two forces of nature" etc.) and we get barely a sizzle, not a bang. I didn't actually feel like the Dragon Reborn in the show was important to the story at all.

 

I would have gladly swallowed all other changes if we'd gotten that.

If Moraine can't lie, then she's definitely not stilled. Or I'm fixating on actual details from the book that the showrunners aren't concerned with.