4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I don't watch the youtubers - were any of these folks anywhere near the mark on their predictions for S1?  Just wondering at their track record.

 

Wow - how is Rafe going to add all his non-canon material in only 5 seasons?  They'll be lucky to reach Dumai's Wells much less the Last Battle.

If it is 5 seasons then simply by force of hand Rafe will need to just construct a brand new story from the ashes of the books, loads of new scenes and characters to try and communicate themes that Robert Jordan spent entire chapters on in just a few sentences. At that point the show cant be anything but WOT in name only, and any show runner who is a true fan of the books surely has to walk away. 

14 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

If it is 5 seasons then simply by force of hand Rafe will need to just construct a brand new story from the ashes of the books, loads of new scenes and characters to try and communicate themes that Robert Jordan spent entire chapters on in just a few sentences. At that point the show cant be anything but WOT in name only, and any show runner who is a true fan of the books surely has to walk away. 

I don't see Rafe walking away, despite claiming to be a huge book fan.  Amazon may shut it down, but Rafe is on board until that time.  Just my thoughts...

26 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Nyns driver to becoming an aes sedai, throughout the early books at least, turns into wanting to be able to heal Rand, or at least delay the madness. But I think we can show the start of madness as they do in the books, we know who Lewis Therin is as a character now in season 1 so we can start getting him appearing to Rand much as we see the male channeller talking to himself at the very start. That will be enough to show all is not great with his mind, especially in scenes where we see those Lewis thoughts as internal monologues in the book. In the show we can actually have Lewis there in scene talking to Rand about how Lanfer was always jealous even as she is talking to rand, then, every now and again Rand repeat what Lewis has just said to him? 

Yup, madness must come sooner and heavier.  It was always there in the books but was such a slow creep (which was fine) but less seasons means acceleration.

52 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I don't see Rafe walking away, despite claiming to be a huge book fan.  Amazon may shut it down, but Rafe is on board until that time.  Just my thoughts...

Oh I agree with you on that, 

It's not YouTubers who said that S3 will be Shadow Rising, and closer to the books.  Rafe said it in one of his interviews.

 

Cairhien is in. We have set pictures and Rosamund Pike confirmed it in a promo as well.

The Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn aren't going to be separate portions of story in S2.  Perrin will follow his Great Hunt story, as will, mostly, Loial, Egwene and Nynaeve -- we have shots of Egwene collared per Great Hunt.  Events from their stories in Dragon Reborn, when they are included/integrated will happen to them on their Great Hunt journeys.  For example, Perrin rescuing an Aiel in a cage.  Rand's role with the Sheinarans specifically will be taken by Perrin, and missing parts of Perrin's story from Eye of the World will be pulled into S2 as well (specifically Elyas is replacing Hurin, looks like).  Faile, however, is being pushed to S3...again, confirmed by Rafe. 

 

Mat will mostly be following his Dragon Reborn journey. Rafe has said that Mat's journey had to change the most, though rather than rescuing the girls in Tear, one way or another he will be rescuing the girls in Falme.  The quarterstaff scene is in there, but will be built up to in some way.

Moiraine will be doing at least a significant chunk of what she does in The Great Hunt, but that will be expanded with her chasing down Rand (like she does in Dragon Reborn) in Cairhien. It is probably expanded by giving more depth and explanation to why she decides to pass Lan's bond, as well as the internal strife to deal with her own shielding. 

 

Rand will likely encounter Selene on the road and do some of his solo stuff from Great Hunt. He does encounter Moiraine in Cairhien, and goes from there to Falme too, but we don't know how. They probably will not have Portal Stones AND other worlds AND Waygates AND Flicker AND Travelling...too many modes of transportation. My guess is that Waygates can be used as portal stones and Rand stumbles on the weave to do it trying to open the Waygate since Moiraine can't, and we get something that serves as the flicker sequence (though it won't be the same). 

 

Madness for Rand likely does come a little faster, but won't be strong here. In Dragon Reborn, he is getting a bit mad. He will identify with Lews Therin earlier, though, because we have the actor and will probably start to have Rand seeing him this Season, but maybe not talking to him yet.

 

 

I think Season 3 will be the last.

For the genre to work , the acting and the character development has to be top notch and with WoT it just isn't.  For me ,  don't think any of the characters were developed sufficiently to really care about what happened to them.  

 

I think back to the deaths of Kerene and Steppin. Did anyone care? Serious question.  Was anyone drawn to emotion by watching it?  I was glad when he killed himself so I don't have to see him anymore - I suppose that is emotion but not really the kind they were going for.  The whole cast crying and beating their chests at the end of it.. weird, forced and didn't work based on the thin characters they had built up beforehand.  WoT is like that overall, IMO.

 

This genre won't attract the kind of interest of more mainstream shows unless it includes the character arcs and human stories that GoT did so well.  They don't have the talent on hand to achieve that.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 20232 yr by Maximillion

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

I think Season 3 will be the last.

For the genre to work , the acting and the character development has to be top notch and with WoT it just isn't.  For me ,  don't think any of the characters were developed sufficiently to really care about what happened to them.  

 

I think back to the deaths of Kerene and Steppin. Did anyone care? Serious question.  Was anyone drawn to emotion by watching it?  I was glad when he killed himself so I don't have to see him anymore - I suppose that is emotion but not really the kind they were going for.  The whole cast crying and beating their chests at the end of it.. weird, forced and didn't work based on the thin characters they had built up beforehand.  WoT is like that overall, IMO.

 

This genre won't attract the kind of interest of more mainstream shows unless it includes the character arcs and human stories that GoT did so well.  They don't have the talent on hand to achieve that.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, there are 18 Stepin fanfics on Archive of our Own so far. Considering he was only in 2 episodes and had about 20 minutes of screentime, that's not bad.  According the Neilson and other review systems it seems to way outperformed Amazon's expectations, and is finding particular appeal in Asian markets like India.  
So...maybe your opinion is not necessarily the only one Amazon cares about?

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

I think Season 3 will be the last.

For the genre to work , the acting and the character development has to be top notch and with WoT it just isn't.  For me ,  don't think any of the characters were developed sufficiently to really care about what happened to them.  

 

I think back to the deaths of Kerene and Steppin. Did anyone care? Serious question.  Was anyone drawn to emotion by watching it?  I was glad when he killed himself so I don't have to see him anymore - I suppose that is emotion but not really the kind they were going for.  The whole cast crying and beating their chests at the end of it.. weird, forced and didn't work based on the thin characters they had built up beforehand.  WoT is like that overall, IMO.

 

This genre won't attract the kind of interest of more mainstream shows unless it includes the character arcs and human stories that GoT did so well.  They don't have the talent on hand to achieve that.

 

I think you might have been right in the days before streaming.  There is a lot more room for mediocre productions out there - and there are a lot of them that have enough success to just keep going.  WoT may just keep going even if S2 and beyond is no different than S1.  Some people will watch anything:  just because it is there, because they liked the book, because of the actors cast, because they genuinely enjoy it (flaws and all) or whatever...

 

Case in point - some of my favorite movies are: Shaun of the Dead, Napoleon Dynamite, Equilibrium, Last Samurai, etc.  Others will think some or all of them are trash - maybe for some of the same reasons you outlined above.

 

I agree with you in that S1 sucked for me, but I'm starting to learn that others really liked it.  In the end, the almighty dollar will determine if they stop at S2, S3, or S8.  I mean c'mon, I listed Napoleon Dynamite as one of my favorite movies.  Of course there wasn't a sequel.  😁

On 1/2/2023 at 3:04 AM, DaddyFinn said:

I've seen suggestions that Callandor&Tear won't happen in S2. That storyline could be merged with Sammael&Illian because we don't spend that much time in Tear.

IMO Callandor and Tear could be over by s3 e2-3.  Episode 3 having Rand, Mat, and Moiraine going into the land of the finn and then heading out by the end of the episode. Then episode 4 has Elayne, Nyn, Thom and Julian going to Tanchico.

 

Julian as Latino or Asian?  I sometimes cast him differently in my mind.

Edited March 16, 20232 yr by Cipher

On 3/7/2023 at 6:33 AM, Maximillion said:

Did anyone care? Serious question.  Was anyone drawn to emotion by watching it?

Yes, actually. I thought Stepin's arc was well-written and engaging. It was some of the better written material in S1.

 

On 3/7/2023 at 6:33 AM, Maximillion said:

This genre won't attract the kind of interest of more mainstream shows unless it includes the character arcs and human stories that GoT did so well.  They don't have the talent on hand to achieve that.

What genre? GoT and WoT are the same genre. What fantasy is mainstream? As for the talent, they have tons of very good actors. All of S1 was well-acted. If there is a lack of talent, it's in the writer's room. But as I've explained elsewhere, they deserve a mulligan for S1 given the changes wrought by COVID restrictions.

 

I agree that there needs to be a sharper focus on the main characters and their development in S2, but the doom and gloom seems a bit overwrought, IMO.

On 3/16/2023 at 5:01 PM, Cipher said:

IMO Callandor and Tear could be over by s3 e2-3.  Episode 3 having Rand, Mat, and Moiraine going into the land of the finn and then heading out by the end of the episode. Then episode 4 has Elayne, Nyn, Thom and Julian going to Tanchico.

 

Julian as Latino or Asian?  I sometimes cast him differently in my mind.

I thought Julian was very dark skinned

On 3/22/2023 at 5:30 AM, DojoToad said:

I thought Julian was very dark skinned

He is. I always thought of him as black, or at least a dark skinned Indian etc

On 3/21/2023 at 2:30 PM, DojoToad said:

I thought Julian was very dark skinned

Definately, but he originally sported the iconic straw sun hat that is typically worn by Chinese field workers and sports a bamboo staff.  But he is Tearin whose defenders of the stone wear helms that sound like conquistador helmets iirc.  I know dark skinned asians and latinos, so I sometimes cast him as one and sometimes I envision the other.  Can't make up my mind.  But always a good looking guy who is an aging lady's man.

8 hours ago, Cipher said:

Definately, but he originally sported the iconic straw sun hat that is typically worn by Chinese field workers

Huh, I always imagined it as some kind of a fez hat

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Huh, I always imagined it as some kind of a fez hat

Were you watching Doctor Who around the time you read the chapters involving him?

 

A couple fan art images I found.

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Were you watching Doctor Who around the time you read the chapters involving him?

Never seen a single episode 😏

Just now, DaddyFinn said:

Never seen a single episode 😏

https://youtu.be/030YkywS9Wk

In Tear he wears the wide-brimmed straw hat. However, when he goes to Tarabon, he acquires a fez to blend in with the Taraboners and wears that for the rest of the series.  

On 3/24/2023 at 9:29 AM, SinisterDeath said:

https://youtu.be/030YkywS9Wk

FWIW, I always pictured Julian's hat as a fez as well. 

OMG, I haven't seen any Doctor Who since the very early days of the fifth doctor...don't even know what to think! :eek:

The folks who liked Season 1 or are optimistic about the direction of the show can basically be broken down into two camps: they either (1) simply enjoyed this new interpretation, or (2) they are optimistic that the show will grow more faithful to the books.

 

To the folks in group 1, I’m disappointed for me, but happy for you.

 

To the folks in group 2, your optimism is almost certainly misplaced.

 

I keep hearing how Rafe is such a big fan of the books. Look, I’m sure he is. But he has a VERY different take on the material than many people. You only have to look back at his childhood. Please consider this interview:

 

Quote

He referenced the books’ female cast, and their individuality in a world that’s so much different than themselves and how it helped him and his mother relate to being unorthodox individuals—he as a gay person in Utah and his mother as a Mormon woman. 

 

https://www.keengamer.com/articles/news/the-wheel-of-time-showrunner-rafe-judkins-comic-con-interview-and-a-new-series-poster-and-release-window/
 

Rafe not only felt ostracized from his community growing up, but he had a very close relationship with his mother, as many gay sons do. This is not a stereotype - it has been written about and studied extensively. I won’t bother citing the articles, just do a simple google search. 
 

As a result, whereas many readers (including me) read Rand’s hero’s journey as *the central story* of WOT - Rafe does not. Rafe’s telling is going to lean heavily into the matriarchal aspects of WOT. The Aes Sedai, the female rulers, and the Super Girls are going to receive equal if not greater emphasis to Rand. And Rafe is going to focus a lot more on “non-conforming” sexuality and other social issues. 
 

This is how you get a steamy scene between Moraine and Siuan that was, at most, only barely hinted at in a prequel to the series. 
 

This is how you get Nyn killing a trolloc with her bare hands in Episode 2, and sneaking up to put a knife to Lan’s throat.

 

This is how you get a group of Super Girls defending Tarwin’s Gap while Rand is largely sidelined. Inexcusable. 
 

And worst of all, this is how you cast aside the books’ core dichotomy of saidar/saidin as it relates to resurrection of the dragon. That was THE core premise of the series: that a MAN was prophesied to be resurrected as the Dragon and channel tainted Saidin, and the Aes Sedai’s inherent conflict in hunting male channelers while knowing full well they needed the Dragon Reborn.

 

None of this had anything to do with Covid. This is Rafe’s “new turning of the wheel.” I suspect this was also the pitch to Amazon - a fantasy series for women and Gen Z, etc.

 

And by the way, I know that Rafe’s version is going to resonate with a lot of folks who share some of Rafe’s lived experiences. There is a reason why WOT resonates with many in the LGBTQ+ or whatever you want to call it community. I’m not judging that at all. 
 

But we need to see this for what it is.

 

This doesn’t even get into the issues of poor writing/dialogue, and poor/artificial/young-adult-looking production value. I realize that’s all in the eye of the beholder, but I don’t expect any of that to improve, either. 

Edited March 28, 20232 yr by WoTwasThat

I’m fairly new to this community but figured I’d share my 2 cents regarding the original question. I personally enjoyed the show for what it was, and despite being tempted to watch it through the perspective of the books, made the decision to experience the show separately. One reason is simply that I crave more WOT based content in any form, another reason being that due to the massive undertaking of translating the books to television, I was immensely grateful that someone was willing to attempt it. I had come to accept that it wouldn’t or couldn’t be done, so I can appreciate it for existing at all. I understand all the criticism, and even leaving the books out of it, I could definitely find things to criticize as well. Overall I enjoyed it and look forward to future seasons. For me it simply gives me more content to dive into and an appreciation for the people who were willing to tackle the job. 

2 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I’m fairly new to this community but figured I’d share my 2 cents regarding the original question. I personally enjoyed the show for what it was, and despite being tempted to watch it through the perspective of the books, made the decision to experience the show separately. One reason is simply that I crave more WOT based content in any form, another reason being that due to the massive undertaking of translating the books to television, I was immensely grateful that someone was willing to attempt it. I had come to accept that it wouldn’t or couldn’t be done, so I can appreciate it for existing at all. I understand all the criticism, and even leaving the books out of it, I could definitely find things to criticize as well. Overall I enjoyed it and look forward to future seasons. For me it simply gives me more content to dive into and an appreciation for the people who were willing to tackle the job. 

Funny how different people are.  I have never been one to crave more content for the sake of content.

 

For example - I loved the first book of the Dune series.  But didn't like the 2nd and 3rd - much less beyond.  But I was content to read the 1st book over and over even though I wanted more.  Same with the screen adaptations.  The 1984 movie stunk (for me).  I watched it twice over the years but never again.  Same with the Sci-Fi series, watched it a few times but it was just not good enough to enjoy.

 

My rationale - why waste my time on something I don't enjoy and am critical of just for the sake of more content?  I know I love the book, I'll just read it again.  Same with the Avenger movies.  I really love some and dislike others.  Seen them all but only re-watch the ones I enjoy.

 

I get more out of less.  Others get more out of more.

I’ll add a different take to @Lightfriendsocialmistress and @DojoToad…

 

I derive pleasure from sharing awesomeness with others. I enjoy watching a movie I like, or taking a favorite hike in the mountains, by myself, but I enjoy it so much more if I can share that experience with someone else who has never seen it.

 

When I heard that WOT was finally in production, I was thrilled that a broader audience would finally get to experience the same awesomeness I did (well - at least through book 6 before things sort of derailed). It made me so mad and disappointed when I started to realize around Epi 2 that this was not my WOT, and for a great many people this Rafe-WOT is the only WOT they would ever know.

 

I felt the same way walking out of the theater after Dark Tower. I was so pissed. Sure, I have the books. I know the real story, but I wanted that story to be shared.

 

One other thing that excited me about WOTTV is I thought it might actually be an opportunity to improve on the books by tightening up the story and fixing a lot of flaws from Book 7 onward. That’s never going to happen now, which is disappointing. 

2 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

I’ll add a different take to @Lightfriendsocialmistress and @DojoToad…

 

I derive pleasure from sharing awesomeness with others. I enjoy watching a movie I like, or taking a favorite hike in the mountains, by myself, but I enjoy it so much more if I can share that experience with someone else who has never seen it.

 

When I heard that WOT was finally in production, I was thrilled that a broader audience would finally get to experience the same awesomeness I did (well - at least through book 6 before things sort of derailed). It made me so mad and disappointed when I started to realize around Epi 2 that this was not my WOT, and for a great many people this Rafe-WOT is the only WOT they would ever know.

 

I felt the same way walking out of the theater after Dark Tower. I was so pissed. Sure, I have the books. I know the real story, but I wanted that story to be shared.

 

One other thing that excited me about WOTTV is I thought it might actually be an opportunity to improve on the books by tightening up the story and fixing a lot of flaws from Book 7 onward. That’s never going to happen now, which is disappointing. 

Dark Tower was so bad.