30 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I think it's at least partly due to the fact the group travels from Two Rivers to Shadar Logoth and Breen's Spring in just a couple of episodes. I'm not sure on the scale of the map but shouldn't that take weeks of traveling even on horseback? We also don't see any other major towns/cities so feels a bit empty. I'm sure it will get better in the next few episodes.

I'm not sure that it will get better.  Don't you want to come out strong.  There are too many options available out there between TV, movies, cable, satellite, and streaming.  Why waste your time on a show that can't grab you in an episode or two when there are almost limitless choices out there.  There is no time for a slow burn.

23 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I'm sitting at about 75 of 100 from what I've currently seen. This can go up or down depending on how good or bad the rest of the episodes are.

For reference, The Boys & Invincible are both a 90 out of 100, GoT series was an 70 out of 100, and MCU is an 80 out of 100.

*Edit*
Also, I was tempering my hype. I set my internal bar pretty low so as to not suffer from hype shock. 

E.g. when a video game is over hyped and falls flat and gets review bombed even though it's an above average game.

My biggest issue is that this feels more like the arrow verse then GOT, I didn’t want GOT copy, the books and world are vastly different, but it has that teenage fiction feel which the books are not. 
 

The first 2 episodes where the pilot and seemed written and filmed that way, which is something modern TV has moved away from, episode 3 seemed to get more into its stride more because it slowed down and had time to breathe. I do not understand the insistence to have these as 8 episode series, what happened to the good old days of a 15 episode+ season for a tv show. 

3 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

My biggest issue is that this feels more like the arrow verse then GOT, I didn’t want GOT copy, the books and world are vastly different, but it has that teenage fiction feel which the books are not. 
 

The first 2 episodes where the pilot and seemed written and filmed that way, which is something modern TV has moved away from, episode 3 seemed to get more into its stride more because it slowed down and had time to breathe. I do not understand the insistence to have these as 8 episode series, what happened to the good old days of a 15 episode+ season for a tv show. 

15 plus episodes would give them time to slow down and explain the world.  Everything feels so rushed.  But budgets are budgets and are the limiting factor...

4 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I do not understand the insistence to have these as 8 episode series,

Ask Amazon. I'd also like at least 10 episodes so Rafe and others wouldn't have to cut and change so much. Maybe in future seasons. Season 2 is also 8 episodes if I remember correctly.

Serious point - I think a longer first episode would have helped, maybe sorted out the pacing, justified them leaving etc. etc.  But that's done now. Weekly gaps between epsisodes might even help the assessment of the pacing in episodes 4 to 8.

 

Less serious point - I'm starting a new Wheel of Time drinking game. Every time you see a horse on a cliff, drink!

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

I think it's at least partly due to the fact the group travels from Two Rivers to Shadar Logoth and Breen's Spring in just a couple of episodes. I'm not sure on the scale of the map but shouldn't that take weeks of traveling even on horseback? We also don't see any other major towns/cities so feels a bit empty. I'm sure it will get better in the next few episodes.

Yes, that might be it. Hopefully it gets better.

54 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I'm not sure that it will get better.  Don't you want to come out strong.  There are too many options available out there between TV, movies, cable, satellite, and streaming.  Why waste your time on a show that can't grab you in an episode or two when there are almost limitless choices out there.  There is no time for a slow burn.

Yeah... A sort of sobering thought I had was here we are with about 2.5 hours of the show so far. Think about how much more they had accomplished 2.5 hours in to the Lord of the Rings movie with regards to all the characters, the setting, the story, etc. So I'm hoping with more episodes I'll really start loving things somehow, but then three episodes should really have been plenty to get the show off to a fantastic start.

 

I'm thinking going all in on the who is the dragon reborn thing is looking to be a large mistake in the adaptation. It's causing too many trickle through changes that force more/new scenes and require the removal of others that were important to character and story development. For no positive gain. There isn't enough time in eight episodes to deal with this and characters and plot points are feeling flat or hollow as a result. Since they wanted the anyone can be the dragon mystery, they needed to sort of even everything out more across the characters and add more scenes to support that like the Egwene cliff dunking, the scene between Moiraine and Nynaeve in the cave disqualifying Nynaeve, etc. And they had to remove Tam's fever dream which provides Rand's character with much of his initial internal conflict through the early story. There was no time for Padan Fain and the townsfolk discussing the false dragons (it was such a simple and straightforward way of laying out much of the show lore and characterizing the beliefs of the general population). There was no time to include Thom in the Two Rivers. Those sorts of things.

 

Apart from that, I do wish they made this feel more like the Wheel of Time. Three episodes in and not a single blood and ashes from Mat. Did I miss it? I remember Mat saying, "shite." Those types of things would have been so, so easy to include and would have given the fans some real enjoyment in seeing the books brought to life on the screen.

Edited November 20, 20213 yr by Jackdaw_Fool

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Thanks, I didn't realise the timeline is so precise. So about a month of traveling? Not so bad after all

 

How it feels on screen is more important (the only thing that is important really).  It doesn't currently feel expansive at all.  It's hard to convey, of course, but not impossible.

Regarding the pacing, I lost count of how many scenes were cut away from the instant after a character delivered their lines. Several times it was after significant, ominous, or otherwise interesting (character-moment) lines, where you just wish the camera would hold on the actors for a few more seconds to see how they reacted, whether in silence or with a look or even a follow-up line where appropriate, but they cut away so gosh-darn fast you have no time to appreciate or digest what was just shared. This must have happened dozens of times in the first few episodes and I just find myself shaking my head and wondering why?

 

Maybe this is a leftover habit from old-fashioned TV where you had hard time constraints you had to squeeze into, but these first few episodes could have each been a few minutes longer at the very least, for ZERO extra money, just be letting the camera linger on these already-filmed conversations for a moment longer. What does it matter is a streaming show is 55 or 57 or 59 minutes, ect? I don't know if this sort of thing is that episodes' director's fault (and if it is, each director does it!) or Rafe, ultimately, but it was jarring, disappointing, and unnecessary. 

Finished E3 last night...

 

I'm definitely hooked. It's not a perfect show. But it is a bloody good one. Let me get my negatives out of the way first:

 

• Breakneck pacing is my personal biggest problem. While it was a problem in Episodes 1 and 2, it disappeared completely in 3. This may be due to the change in director (Yip for Briesewitz), but 3 succeeded in keeping me engaged without feeling rushed in a way that 1 and 2 did not. Also, I think I just would have liked a few more recognizable book moments - but that's probably more sentimentality than anything about the show being "bad".
• Editing is questionable at points.

That's pretty much it for me at this point in terms of the "quality" of the show. The writing is good. The dialogue is solid and the exposition feels mostly natural. They've found some creative ways to convey concepts (the dead Aiel, the 3 oaths, the tinkers, etc). The action sequences are mostly on point - albeit with some odd editing at some points.

 

Acting - All the main characters are great. I really believe each one of them has nailed their characters. Moments that stood out for me:

• Rand screaming at Moiraine in the forest. Such a nice little foreshadowing scene that gives us a great deal of insight into the anger under the surface. And it gives me comfort that Josha will kill it as darth Rand.
• Perrin - there was a look on his face when Egwene said something offhand about Trollocs killing Laila that sold me on Marcus. It was very poignant. He has that deliberate cadence and shy reluctance. 
• Mat - I like Mat and feel they've done a good job showing both his big heart, and his rascally, scheming side. I loved the way he avoided helping Rand split wood and maneuvered himself into the darkfriend barmaid's good graces. That is quintessential Mat. I really like that he's started to change since he found the dagger.
• Egwene - I just think Maddie gets Egwene. She has that brash self-confidence and reckless attitude that people either love about Egwene or hate about her. I've no doubt she's going to be excellent in the role going forward. I love the scene between her and Moiraine, but I also love how she comes back from that and tries to snuggle up with Rand. Their interaction has been great and has really made me believe in a relationship that I was never really sold on in the books.
• Nynaeve - is amazing. I love the way she tore into Lan and just bullied him. It's so on brand for Nyn, but they were able to pull it off without making her horribly unlikeable (as she often is in the books). I loved her takedown of the Trolloc and it did not feel like pandering to me in any sense.
• Moiraine - disappeared for an entire episode! Rosamund is perfect. I want more of her. Too many good moments to pick one favorite. But I am a big fan of the way they depict the OP, and her physicality during those scenes feels very natural.
• Lan - is growing on me. He's the one I'm least convinced by at this point. I did like his exchange with Mat in Shadar Logoth - but that was more Mat than Lan. From a physicality standpoint, Daniel Henney is good. I did love how easily he escaped Nyn's knife to his throat and "you were going to kill me" was a nice, dry line.
• Thom - is not what I expected. I want more.

The changes:

• Perrin. I need to know where they are going with this. I said before that it's a change with a high degree of difficulty. So far, Marcus has played it well. He seems genuinely traumatized and disconnected. The writing hasn't really had to catch up yet. His dream was genuinely disturbing though, so it is clear that the writers are conscious of it and are not going to leave it in the background. Execution will be key.
• Mat. Not worried here. I think when we return to Emond's Field, the Cauthons will be changed just like the rest of the village. 
• Non-gendered Dragon. With the exception of one clunky line of dialogue, it's a non-issue to this point. But also unnecessary. 

I was genuinely impressed with Episode 3. And I'm fully optimistic about the future of this show.

9/10

4 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Three episodes in and not a single blood and ashes from Mat. Did I miss it? I remember Mat saying, "shite." Those types of things would have been so, so easy to include and would have given the fans some real enjoyment in seeing the books brought to life on the screen.

 

I'm with you. I think by the end of episode 3, we had multiple 'S***' drops, an 'arse' (I think) and one 'bastard.'

 

And zero 'bloody ashes.' 

 

Not to mention the sleezy innuendo about Rand and Mat 'taking turns' with the barmaid. Yep, I'm sure Harriet and RJ are loving that one. Nothing like some crude sexual sarcasm about two of our young protagonists having a threesome (right before a whole scene about how Rand could 'do better' than Mat if 'he wanted a man') to let viewers know you're 'staying true to the heart and soul of the books.'

 

Pathetic.

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

My biggest issue is that this feels more like the arrow verse then GOT, I didn’t want GOT copy, the books and world are vastly different, but it has that teenage fiction feel which the books are not. 
 

The first 2 episodes where the pilot and seemed written and filmed that way, which is something modern TV has moved away from, episode 3 seemed to get more into its stride more because it slowed down and had time to breathe. I do not understand the insistence to have these as 8 episode series, what happened to the good old days of a 15 episode+ season for a tv show. 

Yeah, I didn't get a "CW/Arrow verse" feel out of this at all. The acting and the teenage angst just wasn't there.

But yes, I really DO wish they would have made this 12 or 24 episodes... but we can't always get what we want.

 

18 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

Regarding the pacing, I lost count of how many scenes were cut away from the instant after a character delivered their lines. Several times it was after significant, ominous, or otherwise interesting (character-moment) lines, where you just wish the camera would hold on the actors for a few more seconds to see how they reacted, whether in silence or with a look or even a follow-up line where appropriate, but they cut away so gosh-darn fast you have no time to appreciate or digest what was just shared. This must have happened dozens of times in the first few episodes and I just find myself shaking my head and wondering why?

 

Maybe this is a leftover habit from old-fashioned TV where you had hard time constraints you had to squeeze into, but these first few episodes could have each been a few minutes longer at the very least, for ZERO extra money, just be letting the camera linger on these already-filmed conversations for a moment longer. What does it matter is a streaming show is 55 or 57 or 59 minutes, ect? I don't know if this sort of thing is that episodes' director's fault (and if it is, each director does it!) or Rafe, ultimately, but it was jarring, disappointing, and unnecessary. 

This might explain a lot of the "clipped" dialogue in the first episode that I didn't like.

 

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

errin. I need to know where they are going with this. I said before that it's a change with a high degree of difficulty. So far, Marcus has played it well. He seems genuinely traumatized and disconnected. The writing hasn't really had to catch up yet. His dream was genuinely disturbing though, so it is clear that the writers are conscious of it and are not going to leave it in the background. Execution will be key.

Remember in the books where Rand was confronted by Ba'alzamon, and was shown Kari al'Thor surrounded by fades?

They're 100% doing something similar with Perrin.

It's also entirely possible that the "Laila = DF" theory could be used here to.

42 minutes ago, Reader said:

Serious point - I think a longer first episode would have helped, maybe sorted out the pacing, justified them leaving etc. etc.  But that's done now. Weekly gaps between epsisodes might even help the assessment of the pacing in episodes 4 to 8.

 

 

I rewatched the first three episodes this morning and I came away with the feeling that there were perhaps 15-30 minutes of script that got cut from the first two episodes.   There is the possibility that some of that might be shown in future episodes.

 

I also have been wondering if they are not trying to rush through the more LOTR-y early parts to get to the meat of the story as quickly as they can.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Finished E3 last night...

 

I'm definitely hooked. It's not a perfect show. But it is a bloody good one. Let me get my negatives out of the way first:

 

• Breakneck pacing is my personal biggest problem. While it was a problem in Episodes 1 and 2, it disappeared completely in 3. This may be due to the change in director (Yip for Briesewitz), but 3 succeeded in keeping me engaged without feeling rushed in a way that 1 and 2 did not. Also, I think I just would have liked a few more recognizable book moments - but that's probably more sentimentality than anything about the show being "bad".
• Editing is questionable at points.

That's pretty much it for me at this point in terms of the "quality" of the show. The writing is good. The dialogue is solid and the exposition feels mostly natural. They've found some creative ways to convey concepts (the dead Aiel, the 3 oaths, the tinkers, etc). The action sequences are mostly on point - albeit with some odd editing at some points.

 

Acting - All the main characters are great. I really believe each one of them has nailed their characters. Moments that stood out for me:

• Rand screaming at Moiraine in the forest. Such a nice little foreshadowing scene that gives us a great deal of insight into the anger under the surface. And it gives me comfort that Josha will kill it as darth Rand.
• Perrin - there was a look on his face when Egwene said something offhand about Trollocs killing Laila that sold me on Marcus. It was very poignant. He has that deliberate cadence and shy reluctance. 
• Mat - I like Mat and feel they've done a good job showing both his big heart, and his rascally, scheming side. I loved the way he avoided helping Rand split wood and maneuvered himself into the darkfriend barmaid's good graces. That is quintessential Mat. I really like that he's started to change since he found the dagger.
• Egwene - I just think Maddie gets Egwene. She has that brash self-confidence and reckless attitude that people either love about Egwene or hate about her. I've no doubt she's going to be excellent in the role going forward. I love the scene between her and Moiraine, but I also love how she comes back from that and tries to snuggle up with Rand. Their interaction has been great and has really made me believe in a relationship that I was never really sold on in the books.
• Nynaeve - is amazing. I love the way she tore into Lan and just bullied him. It's so on brand for Nyn, but they were able to pull it off without making her horribly unlikeable (as she often is in the books). I loved her takedown of the Trolloc and it did not feel like pandering to me in any sense.
• Moiraine - disappeared for an entire episode! Rosamund is perfect. I want more of her. Too many good moments to pick one favorite. But I am a big fan of the way they depict the OP, and her physicality during those scenes feels very natural.
• Lan - is growing on me. He's the one I'm least convinced by at this point. I did like his exchange with Mat in Shadar Logoth - but that was more Mat than Lan. From a physicality standpoint, Daniel Henney is good. I did love how easily he escaped Nyn's knife to his throat and "you were going to kill me" was a nice, dry line.
• Thom - is not what I expected. I want more.

The changes:

• Perrin. I need to know where they are going with this. I said before that it's a change with a high degree of difficulty. So far, Marcus has played it well. He seems genuinely traumatized and disconnected. The writing hasn't really had to catch up yet. His dream was genuinely disturbing though, so it is clear that the writers are conscious of it and are not going to leave it in the background. Execution will be key.
• Mat. Not worried here. I think when we return to Emond's Field, the Cauthons will be changed just like the rest of the village. 
• Non-gendered Dragon. With the exception of one clunky line of dialogue, it's a non-issue to this point. But also unnecessary. 

I was genuinely impressed with Episode 3. And I'm fully optimistic about the future of this show.

9/10

Well said and this echo's a lot of my own thoughts.

40 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yeah, I didn't get a "CW/Arrow verse" feel out of this at all. The acting and the teenage angst just wasn't there.

But yes, I really DO wish they would have made this 12 or 24 episodes... but we can't always get what we want.

 

This might explain a lot of the "clipped" dialogue in the first episode that I didn't like.

 

Remember in the books where Rand was confronted by Ba'alzamon, and was shown Kari al'Thor surrounded by fades?

They're 100% doing something similar with Perrin.

It's also entirely possible that the "Laila = DF" theory could be used here to.

I probably need to explain my Arrowverse comparison a little better here. 

 

In terms of Scripting, acting, and the special effects this feels more like arrow then it does GOT, See or other more adult orientated drama's I suppose a closer comparison is the Shannara Chronicles. Or actually Agents of Shield. It feels like he is trying to get that teenage fantasy action show while trying to tie in more adult themes. For now I am going to wait and see if the show finds it's feet but it is going to be hard to get casual fans to become invested in a day and age when people, rightly, push back against the "it takes a few episodes to get going" argument. 

 

In this day and age with only 8 episodes in a season there is not room to spend a few episodes "finding a shows feet". 

Fan for many years, reread series, I don't know how many times, and my main comment on the TV series so far: "Hmmmmmmmmmm".  I agree with many of the previous comments, but I think the series will get better, especially when Loial makes his appearance.    Actually, thinking back on it, some of the series so far, did exceeded my expectations.  Rand, the Trollocs, Padan Fain and the scenery were great.  Moraine was also great, but I was expecting that.  A lot of the rest will have to grow on me with time.  I'm going to rewatch with sub-titles this afternoon and see if that helps.  Still, I gave it a "Love It" rating, because, after all it is The Wheel of Time and it is a beginning....

20 minutes ago, NightWolf said:

For these reasons I hope the show gets cancelled ASAP.

Well it is renewed for season 3 so you will have a few years to wait

4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I think it's at least partly due to the fact the group travels from Two Rivers to Shadar Logoth and Breen's Spring in just a couple of episodes. I'm not sure on the scale of the map but shouldn't that take weeks of traveling even on horseback? We also don't see any other major towns/cities so feels a bit empty. I'm sure it will get better in the next few episodes.

 

Sorry in advance for the rambling 

 

The first time I watched GOT I could not get past episode 3.  So for me WOT has already been better than GOT because I know I will be able to keep watching and love the book being portrayed on TV.

 

Now back to GOT for a moment 

 

But imho GOT, especially in the later seasons, was awful for this.  Characters in 1 location were suddenly in new locations in the next episode with little to no acknowledgement of how vast and far apart locations in Westeros were.

 

Even knowing that 1 season of GOT equalled 1 year of GOT time it was still really difficult for me to see these journeys made so effortlessly at times especially considering the opening sequence shows how vast the GOT world was.

 

In the end I had to remember that travel is so dull  that even acknowledging the travel on TV can be portrayed poorly. 

 

I am so thrilled to see the tools Amazon added like the timeline, the animated backstory shorts and map of the journey.  For me at least,  the WOT has taken extra steps, not even mentioning the great foreshadowing and Easter eggs, to do their best to acknowledge the journeys involved.

 

I  am starting to feel that every revisit of an episode,  much like with the books, is going to be rewarding. 

Well I finished the third episode and I liked it more than I liked the second episode which I liked a lot more than the first episode, so hopefully this is a progression that will continue for a few more weeks until I can finally say that I love this show.

 

Some of the changes have been good, some have been bad and some have been eye roll inducing. The changes to Mat have all been for the best in my opinion, while Perrin’s have left a bit flummoxed as to why they would do that, it’s not so much that he killed his wife, but just her existence in general that bothers me. Perrin accidentally killing someone while he is in a blood rage is a smart way to lead into his character arc, but him having a wife, and being in what I assume was loveless marriage seems needlessly complicated to me. Why not just have him kill  Master Luhan or Danil or just some random villager. 
 

I think the changes that have bothered me the most have been to the things really hooked me on this series, Tam’s fever speeches about Blood Snow and Rand being a foundling, Moiraine telling the village about Manetheren which is the scene that hooked me the most, it was nice that they circled back to it a bit but I’m never going to be ok with that not being a part of the show. And no Dragonmount with Ishy and LTT, leaving that out was a huge mistake and I can see no good reason why they did. 
 

I guess at the end of the day I’m going to keep going with the show, quitting on WOT is just not something I do, I’m hard wired to love this world and it’s inhabitants. But there is a lot of room for improvement in this show, and if the last two episodes are any indication they may actually get there in the end. I sure hope they do at least. 

Edited November 20, 20213 yr by Still Trench

7 hours ago, Xanth said:

It's crazy to see the review swings both on here and IMDB. You'll see one review thats a  9/10 or 10/10 and they say LOVED IT! and the very next review is 1/10 with HATED IT. It just goes to show the passion for the books and the series as a whole.

 

Listen folks, i'm not sure what you all were expecting. At the end of the day this is just a tv series that requires a LOT of cg/special effects so the budget is absolutely appalling for any studio to produce. In my mind they did a very good job overall so far, and although there's some inconsistencies in the story, I feel a lot of people read way way too into this stuff. Just sit back and enjoy the series.

 

The biggest concern I have is if there's enough bashing, let me tell you something. Amazon gives zero shits, they will just cancel the series and it will be done. I think as a community we need to recognize this is most certainly good enough to enjoy, and we should be supportive of what they are making. My wife who's a non-book reader loves it so far, so I think overall we're in good shape as a whole.

 

Anyway, I get all your passion, and its easy to nit pick certain things in the series (like the dragon can be a man or woman....WHAT?!?!?!?), but pfft, just enjoy the fact that you get to watch your childhood series come to life in your lifetime. I know I am!

 

Personally, i'm about a 8/10 so far. It's far from perfect, but SO COOL to see this come to life! ?

 

Thanks! Dont take this the wrong way, not bashing your views if you are negative on it. I just recommend you keep your negativity to the boards, and publicly keep supporting the series. It's the only shot we have because noone is going to re-do this in our lifetime, that I can promise.

So even if people hate it they need to publicly say nice things so it keeps being made?  If everyone simply says it's great how will the show know what needs to be fixed to make it better?  If everyone just publicly say they loved it then the people making it will never improve it.

I do like the subtle stuff they tried, like the quick showing of the dead Aiel's hair.  

 

The big issues for me is key things like the battle at Rand's farm, the group leaving for the journey all seem rather rushed.  Other things had me going WTF does this have to do with anything like pushing Egwene in the water and having a sacred pool?  Other changes seemed pointless like trying to make people think Nyn might be the one by having her born outside the Two Rivers now then basicly pointing out she is 25/26 so too old since Moiraine points out she started out 20 years ago.  That just seemed like a needless change.  They totally got Thom wrong.  I don't hate the character,  but that is not the court bard, flashy Thom or even what a gleemen should be.  A dead aiel imo should of got a bigger reaction from people, but no one seemed to really care a dead feared aielman was found and killed.

 

There are good things about the series and maybe if I had never read a book I would like it better.  Some of the stuff like skipping Berelon I'm cool with.  Wonder how they will introduce Min now.  

18 hours ago, BeTheBud said:

I did not hate it, but I did not love it either. What a boring take, I know. This will be very long, but if there's one thing the Wheel of Time taught me (from a writing perspective), it's the value of being thorough.

 

Let's start with a positive.

 

 

Casting & Characterization

 

I think the casting and characterization is overall a big win, with a few reservations. Nynaeve is almost certainly my favorite thus far. She's a raging, glorious protector. The only moment when I questioned her portrayal was when she refused to heal Moiraine, which I don't think Nynaeve would ever do. This could have been a bluff though, I'm not sure.

 

Perrin, Tam, Padan Fain, and Eamon Valda are the runners up. Perrin feels like such a strong presence and has quite good chemistry with Rand and Mat. Tam is basically exactly how I pictured him. One sour note is that I do think was that he lost against a single Trolloc. I know he was rusty, but he didn't get that heron mark for no reason. Padan Fain's smile was already enough. Eamon Valda is vile and will be delight to despise.

 

Lan is great. He's not perfect for me (why did he care about the bath temperature), but I think he plays the stoic well without becoming a robot. He's quite a badass as he should be. I also loved his interaction with Nynaeve when she tried to kill him. Mat is also great with a couple big reservations. I think Rand has the potential to be fantastic, but narrative-wise is subdued thus far (rightly so). I love his innocence though. Egwene is solid, but not great. She just isn't given much to do so far, which is basically the same as the book.

 

I think I'm in the minority on this one, but two characters I'm not a big fan of thus far are Moiraine and Thom. Regarding Moiraine, she's certainly not awful, but she feels a too distant. I realize she puts on those kinds of airs as an Aes Sedai, but even in the book, I feel she is a little more warm than how she has been portrayed so far. It is hard to fully evaluate her though, since she's kind of been out of commission for one and half episodes. I hope they open her up more in later episodes.

 

As for Thom, I get the grungy country/rock star style they are going for, but I prefer the more regal, theatrical Thom of the books. This is just a stylistic preference, but I feel it rather strongly. As for how Thom behaves, it seems a running theme that the show turns what appear to be light hearted characters into darker, more troubled versions of themselves. Of course, we find later in the books that Thom is a much more troubled character than his initial introduction, but only once we get to sit with him for a time. That being said, I am higher on him than Moiraine, particularly because of the scene between him and Mat when burying the Aiel.

 

With regard to my reservations with Mat, I don't like the fact they made him a thief, at all. To me, Mat simply is not a person who would do that, especially to someone he clearly liked. I know he technically did it so he could buy lanterns for his sisters, but even so I feel this is a very un-Mat thing to do. If anything, he should have just charmed his way into getting the lanterns from the seller for free. Or perhaps humorously fail at such, but the seller takes pity on his sisters, leaving Mat without one.

 

Then there's the change they made to his family. His mom is a drunk and his dad is a cheater. I guess we should call him Unabell Cauthon now. Very bad jokes aside, it's another change to make the character a bit more broken. I don't feel it was necessary, and it will rob us of the very heartwarming scene where Tam and Abell travel all the way to the White Tower to find their children. So we have two not great changes, but fortunately, they don't ruin Mat himself as a character for me. Therefore outside of those changes, I still feel that his character is done quite well (if a bit less disarmingly goofy than what I'm used too) once they leave the Two Rivers.

 

While we're on the subject of character changes, Perrin has a wife. Then he doesn't, 20 minutes later. As I've seen many point out, it's a shortcut for explaining the way Perrin is later in the story, but for me, that's just it. It's a shortcut. They weren't willing to put in the work, so they took the short and easy path. It felt lazy. It's not the end of the world, but it was a low point for me. Similar to Mat, I still love Perrin himself though. I think the way his character has been portrayed through these events is very much how Perrin would react. This is why, even though I really dislike the change, I can still say I love Perrin's character within the show.

 

 

Story, Dialogue & Pacing

 

Ok, this one is significantly more mixed. I feel like the dialogue is sometimes pretty good, but most of the time it just doesn't hook me at all. Much of the dialogue doesn't feel very much like the books. Moiraine did manage to capture my attention during the description of the fall of Manetheren. I also enjoyed Dana's speech, when she revealed herself as a darkfriend. That felt VERY Wheel of Time.

 

In general the third episode was the strongest for me. The first episode was an absolute mess if I'm being honest. It felt like I was constantly being told, look at this, wait no look at this, no forget that, this is what's really happening! Then suddenly the Trollocs are attacking and the episode is over. The second was a good amount better, but still felt quite rushed. I was hoping to linger in Shadar Logoth a bit longer. I never really felt creeped out by the place. The third was the first episode where I felt they really took their time, which is why I enjoyed it the most.

 

Here are some random tidbits that stuck in my mind. I love the intro sequence. This is the part of the show that feels the most like the Wheel of Time for me. I loved the nightmare sequence Rand had. Though the context of Perrin's nightmare grated for me (since I didn't like the Laila inclusion), I thought it was quite effective terrifying nonetheless. The Ba'alzamon teases were cool in concept, but I won't lie, the CG just totally took me out of it on those. The gentling of a random dude by the red Aja was pretty lame. It seemed like screen time that could have been used for something a lot more critical. Loved Moiraine's epic bring down the house moment at the end of episode 1. I felt like the song on horseback was forced, but lead to a really good scene. The wolves don't feel intimidating at all, they look like they'd be nice as pets. I know fantasy wolves are so, so hard to do in live-action, but it still feels like another loss for me. I have no idea how they are going to make the talking not feel silly (if they have talking). The scene where Nynaeve took out a Trolloc was great, if a bit unlikely, and sadly more suspenseful than the entire Shadar Logoth sequence.

 

 

Art Design, Effects & Locations

 

This is another mixed bag for me. Some of the costumes are excellent. I loved most of the Two Rivers' folks get-ups. I didn't like the White Cloaks when they were first revealed, but they are growing on me. They definitely feel more cult-like, which adds to their maniacal side. Still, I would really like to see some shining armor at some point. The Aes Sedai have fairly good design in their costumes, but I despise the color coding. I get the reason, but I just hate it. I would also like to see more dresses. I know it's not practical, but I just am a sucker for dress fashion, love it to death. I also think Moiraine's shoulder things look goofy and rubbery, but it's a minor complaint.

 

The Trolloc's overall design is pretty cool in concept. I like that there is a variety, and that some even are on all fours. In practice, some of them are hits and some are misses. The CG on them does look dated to me, and the practical acting can be a bit weak in some places, in particular when they're stuck on the river bank, after the ferry departs. I wish there were a couple more beaked ones featured though, those where always my favorite in the book. Overall, they are still quite menacing, so I'll take it.

 

The channeling effects range from kind of poor to decent for me. I think the fireballs were the weakest, while I liked the lightning strike a good amount. The stone heaving looked alright, but the coolness factor of that moment made up for the CG rocks. The whirlpool also looked a little wonky, but water is notoriously hard in CG. I was pretty bummed that they didn't have Tam shudder after being healed, a minor change, but I always thought that was a cool (pun intended) layer to healing magic. I definitely like the idea of the weaves themselves being visible to the audience, but I feel like there is a LOT of potential room to grow in exploring more intricate weaves in the future. I hope they capitalize on this.

 

As for sets, Shadar Logoth looked great. Like I said earlier, I was fairly disappointed by the sequence, but not because of the city itself. I liked the claustrophobic design of the streets, as well as the grand scale when Rand and Egwene went into the tower. Mashadar was different, perhaps not as menacing as I'd hoped, but I thought it was still pretty cool. I LOVED a lot of the mountain and valley shots. Especially the one foreshadowing the Breaking. The areas they are shooting in were very well chosen. The Two Rivers town (Emond's Field) looked great, if a little too advanced. I missed the thatched roofs (poor Cenn Buie) of the non-inn buildings, but the inn itself felt spot on, and the general homey feeling was good.

 

 

Other Technical Stuff

 

While not always amazing, some of the cinematography is excellent. The wide shots are often glorious. The action shots aren't quite as good. Some of the transitions were a bit bold, not sure how I feel on them (such as the blood into the muddy pool fading to the tree line).

 

I am very glad the show isn't constantly hidden in darkness, which is what many shows/movies do to save budget. However, this is a double edged sword as it does make the show look a bit cheap, which is crazy to me given the show's budget. I suspect much of that may have been put towards the Blight, the Ways, and Tarwin's Gap, so I will reserve judgement. I also realize, that the startup costs of a first season are often more than subsequent ones, and they'll probably be able to dedicate money more effectively in later seasons.

 

The score is good. It is definitely not on the level of Lord of the Rings or Star Wars, but it's immersive. I always say, if you can't have a truly great score that sticks out, then at least don't make it distracting! I like the intro theme quite a lot, and the two songs we've gotten are both lovely.

 

 

What's Missing

 

This is what really hurt the show so far for me. I respect those that feel differently, but for me, the thing that is missing to me is a general Wheel of Time feel. It's intangible and very difficult to get across in words, as the Wheel of Time feel for me is something that encompasses a huge range of aspects from the books. The humor, the subtlety of the dialogue, the cultural expressions and fashion, the meticulous design of scene settings, the occasional jab of horror, and a lot more. Many of these things feel under-represented or absent thus far.

 

Here is an example that I think will get across what I'm on about. You hear Mat saying "shite" and Egwene calling Rand a "stubborn bastard". These phrases take the place of book Mat's preferred "blood and bloody ashes!" and book Egwene's preferred "wool-head". This may seem like a very small change, because it is, but when you aggregate a lot of these minor differences, the sum total starts to feel significantly different from the original.

 

Now, I fully recognize that some people want the TV series to feel significantly different from the books. I am not one of those people. I don't mind a decent number of differences. I am not unreasonable. I do not expect everything to be book accurate. Cut out Baerlon? That's a shame, but I can live with it. However, small changes like the one I just described are one's that feel completely unnecessary, and rob the world of it's own unique flavor that will set it apart from the myriad of other fantasy series.

 

This is by no means the final word on this though. As I stated earlier, the third episode was where things are starting to look up for me. Ironically, almost all of that episode wasn't from the books, but the feel was definitely getting closer to what I was hoping for. There was a bit more humor that felt right. The classic unexpected darkfriend when Dana had her turn as I discussed earlier. Things like this give me hope. Now that the shock of the beginning is over, perhaps the series will grow into what I hope it can be.

 

Still, "Hope is like a piece of string when you're drowning. It just isn't enough to get you out by itself." So I will remain vigilant as well. If the show never truly delivers for me, then I will always have the books. That was enough before there ever was a TV show, and it will always be enough.

 

 

If you read all that I commend you and thank you for your time. Please have a nice day. ?

 

I am of the understanding that the showrunner & crew of most shows pay attention to serious feedback from fans of the show.   I am pretty sure that WOT will be no exception (and it was hinted at this at the premiere by the way some of them talked to the content creators).   I hope that they read this post.   This is exactly the kind of honest constructive critques that are vital to help shows improve.   I dont have to agree or like everything you mentioned but I do feel you did an amazing job expressing your thoughts and thanks for taking the time to do such a detailed analysis of what you thought.

6 hours ago, Reader said:

I noticed this on the Rotten Tomatoes audience score, which ironically balances out at around 80% overall, which is where I think the show after episode 3 is at right now.

I was told it was that before the premier.

4 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Other things had me going WTF does this have to do with anything like pushing Egwene in the water and having a sacred pool?  Other changes seemed pointless like trying to make people think Nyn might be the one by having her born outside the Two Rivers now then basicly pointing out she is 25/26 so too old since Moiraine points out she started out 20 years ago. 

 

 

I don't know about the sacred pool. The Egwene-in-the-river scene is a literal depiction of how to embrace saidar.

 

The conversation between Moiraine and Nynaeve set up a few things. The questions help show the viewer what Moiraine has been looking for and the types of questions she asked. We see Moiraine and Nynaeve having entirely different views of what the conversation is about. And quickly establishes that Nynaeve is so distrustful of Moiraine and why for the audience.

Having read (and re read) every book, I am a bit skeptical on much of what I have seen so far.  Withholding final opinion until I see how they progress not only the characters but the larger One Story.  This is the greatest fantasy story written and seeing the core of the story held true is paramount.