Inspired by Zerachiel76's excellent topic about Latra Posae Decume...

 

I was just thinking about how everyone was siding with Lews Therin pretty much when it came to the Fateful Concord...

 

Well, not everyone. Most though.

 

I took the position of defending Latra, and I think I had a bit of a moment of clarity.

 

Lews Therin was kind of a jerk.

 

He's bit of a male Chauvinist. He does that weird whistling thing when he looks at women he admires. For some reason he wasn't able to convince many women to join the attack on Shayol ghul.

 

He jilts Lanfear, and she goes crazy and joins the Shadow. Many of the top Forsaken jumped ship because one way or another, Lews Therin personally rubbed them the wrong way. 

 

He torments Rand all the time. Lews probably didn't have some past incarnation of himself talking to him at inopportune moments, but Rand is still doing the best he can.

 

He keeps trying to take over Rand's body and tries to kill him as well.

 

Hero though he might be, Lews Therin very well could have been a jerk and the creator of much of his own misfortune.

 

And lets face it. Haven't you ever wanted to yell at him like Rand: "SHUT UP ALREADY! GO AWAY!"

 

We tend to put some historical figures up on a pedestal and develop an idealized picture of them even though the reality is that they may have been quite flawed, personality-wise.

 

In the United States we have many figures like that. George Patton was an example. He really was a jerk most of the time, but that didn't stop him from being effective when he needed to be during WWII.

 

As the years pass, we get these almost cartoon-like representations of the man like in the movie Patton. Some time is going to come that when people reference Patton, he's going to be just that fictionalized, somewhat humorous caricature of a man who really existed. Who he truly was will be lost to the idea of WHAT he was. He becomes an object.

And so has Lews Therin become the Dragon. the only thing left of him is an insane voice in Rand's head and the memories of his ancient enemies.

 

I get the distinct feeling that Rand doesn't like Lews Therin any more than they do.

 

So, what's your take? Was Lews Therin a jerk?

He does that weird whistling thing when he looks at women he admires.

 

He's a guy. What else could you expect? Even Rand has some trouble with Berelain.

 

And lets face it. Haven't you ever wanted to yell at him like Rand: "SHUT UP ALREADY! GO AWAY!"

 

I like his presence most of the time. Most scenes with Rand lost humour-except when the maiden were involved. LTT 'giggling' had me rolling over laughing every time. His comments that directly address Rand in the last few books are really interesting too. I liked the series WITH the voice.

 

But it is unfair to judge LTT on his current 'voice' existance. He is insane after all.

 

And I have insufficient data about his personality during the AoL to decide whether or not to call him a jerk.

He does that weird whistling thing when he looks at women he admires.

 

He's a guy. What else could you expect? Even Rand has some trouble with Berelain.

 

That's true enough. I guess what bothers me about it is how intrusive it is on Rand's natural psyche. Rand, although young, has a more innocent and pure view of women if you haven't noticed. It's a little distressing I imagine to have someone in your head who kind of leers at women that way, when you're someone like Rand who is pretty old fashioned and chivalrous towards women. Let's just drop the fact that he's involved with three of them at once for a moment shall we.  ;)

His attitude is much more romantic and innocent than Lews Therin's.

 

Lews Therin was supposedly one of the most dignified Aes Sedai of his time and much older than Rand, but apprently, his reaction to women isn't entirely very refined or that mature.

 

But I'll give you the fact that it IS in his head and the fact that Lews Therin is insane. He doesn't have much purchase on his own chips to buy out of objectification of women he sees.

 

It's a little disturbing though that he pines so desperately for the woman he loves, Ilyena, but he has no problem making gaga at any woman he sees as attractive. Again he is insane though. With the mentally disturbed, sex is often one of the things they can hold on to that connects between their conscious minds and their bodies.

 

And lets face it. Haven't you ever wanted to yell at him like Rand: "SHUT UP ALREADY! GO AWAY!"

 

I like his presence most of the time. Most scenes with Rand lost humour-except when the maiden were involved. LTT 'giggling' had me rolling over laughing every time. His comments that directly address Rand in the last few books are really interesting too. I liked the series WITH the voice.

 

But it is unfair to judge LTT on his current 'voice' existance. He is insane after all.

 

And I have insufficient data about his personality during the AoL to decide whether or not to call him a jerk.

 

Well, besides what he provides as a device in the book, he could still be considered a jerk.

 

I mean, jerks are often quite likable in books. Reading about them can be fun, but as a person you wouldn't really want to have to spend much time with them.

 

The Forsaken are a bunch of jerks for the most part, but some of the best stuff involves them in the series.

 

Lews Therin, off his pedestal could very well be a bit of an a-hole. You can still like him if you want, but if we're real about him...

Lews Therin was supposedly one of the most dignified Aes Sedai of his time and much older than Rand, but apprently, his reaction to women isn't entirely very refined or that mature.

 

Lets not forget the spectacle of the former US President, Mr Bill Clinton....

;D

Was he a jerk?  Probably.

 

He's as full of himself as any of the Forsaken.  He considers himself to be possibly even greater than sliced bread.

 

Show me a man who doesn't appreciate the sight of a pretty woman and I'll show you a corpse.  Doesn't mean he intends to do any more than look.  In LTT's case, it's pretty obvious that Ilyena had nothing to worry about.

 

So, yeah, he had a big ego and he wasn't shy or particularly self-effacing and that caused problems with others who also had big egos.  From the evidence we have, he didn't let his ego entirely overrun his better nature like the Forsaken did, though.

I agree with Bob.  And in Lanfear's case, she was a nutjob in the first place.  Woman couldn't take a little rejection so she joined the Shadow?  That's like Asmodean and his music... stupid reasons... but Lanfear mainly joined the Shadow for power because she has to feel supreme.

If you look beter at the "allmighty" Forsaken, you can easily see that they are all losers. They joined the Shadow, sold their souls, because they wanted to play music, or to fantasize about a man for Ages! Or because they wanted to be scientists, and not teachers!

 

They could have been real menand women, and stood up to the chalenge, instead of jsut running away to the Dark One, and cry like small babies because they couldn't be what they wnated to be. God, that is just pussy-like!

Demandred isnt a loser he will kill Faile!!!!!!!

 

And Lews Therin was sound as a pound, we chilled sometimes he was cool

Thanks Jonn  ;D

 

As for the topic I don't think LTT was a jerk, I think most men will admire a good looking woman in their heads, and I know a heck of a lot of women who do the same to men and it's just harmless fun IMO. Harldy Male Chauvanist. A male chauvanist wouldn't have sought to get the AS to agree with his plan, he's have ordered it using his prestige and power.

 

I think a lot of his behavour can be put down to him being insane.

 

However I agree with historical figures being put on a pedastal though, they're never quite as "good" as the history's make them seem.

 

I think he was a confident leader. One cannot lead without a certain amount of confidence, but not even Sammael and Demandred accuse LTT of being full of himself and arrogant (I don't think), although obviously they hate him. I think Sammael even said LTT was over cautious, not exactly the same IMO as being arrogant and full of himself.

Of course if you go 3000 years back you'll find corrupted ways of thought like chauvinism; he probably was a jerk, but he other Aes Sedai did not think it through properly and jumped him on the spot. And if that wasn't enough the taint turned him completely mental and enhanced his already buffed up ego.lol

1. i wasnt a jerk

2. LTT wasnt a jerk from what i'ev read about him in books + net

 

thats my 2 lines :P

In <i>The Shadow Rising</i>, Moghedien thinks of Lews Therin thusly: ``An arrogant man who stank of piety and goodness''. (TSR, Ch. 46, ``Veils'', the scene where that Forsaken questions Elayne and Nynaeve with the use of Compulsion). Tho' the Spider's judgment no doubt reflects her adherence to the Shadow, I suspect that there is something to it.

 

``He jilts Lanfear, and she goes crazy and joins the Shadow.''

He  ended the relationship for the reason given in <i>The Fires of Heavan</i> (Ch. 6, Gateways, p. 172 in the paper edition):

 

``You were always ambitious, Mierin. Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before I ever met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!''.

 

It is Rand speaking, but the words, and the sentiment expressed, are those of LTT. (The text notes that Rand is shocked, having no idea where these words came from, but as we know, he will learn soon enough.) Lews Therin gave up Mierin, but it was because he had begun to realize what she was made of.

 

BTW, it was years after he ended the relationship, and years after the bore was drilled, before she turned to the Shadow. (See the BWB, the sections on the Forsaken.) It is possible that Mierin would not have become Lanfear if LTT had not ended the relationship, but it also possible that he would have discovered that he had taken a viper to his bosom.....

Here is a few line from countless other lines where people(forsaken mainly) described how LTT was:

 

Lanfear to Rand in Rhuiden

 

"I can remember when you were too softhearted to use . anyone. Devious in battle, hard as stone and arrogant as the -mountains, but open and

softhearted as a girl!"

 

There is many statment like this throughout the series. John, please do us a favour and read the whole series again.

 

As for being Jerk, LTT was as much as a jerk as me or any other man can get.

Nobody is perfect.No one here is claiming here that he was an angle or a Mashiah. But he was an excellent leader and his last strike at Shyol Gule was brilliant and the only action that had to be taken. I see where you going with this, but fact remain, that Latra was the total jerk and acted on arrogance, pride and for political gain.

 

And please don't say what she did after the strike, what-ever she did was redemption. A fool realizing too late.

 

If you read the series with a neutral point of view...you will find some other people like Faile, Egwene, Latra as more of a  Jerk than considered normal in any person in any lifetime.

 

;D ::)

 

And I know you will come up with some other arguments, but I am not going to waste my time responding, unless you read the whole series again.

 

;D ;D ;D ;D

 

You are telling me that you will run to the shadow because you are not getting on well with your officer or friend?You will kill innocent people,destroy city, because  you didn't get along with one of your friend or superior officer??? LTT isn't an excuse for Lanfear. She was born twisted. And trust me I have seen women like these in real life. I have seen where there ambitious can land them. I have seen them selling their body, becoming whore to gain promotion or other privillege.And that wasn't movie.

 

I guess any woman's transgression hurts the men around her more than it does her.I have seen that too.

 

speak for yourself!im an angle!

 

and i think id be pretty arrogant if i had that authority and power!

LTT was arrogant in that he was quite possibly as good as he dared to think he was. You have to consider the source- those who dismiss his intellect are those such as Demandred, his intellectual rival- who, incidentally, always lost to LTT. Sammael derides his skill as a general, yet when directly confronted with the question "How often did you manage to beat him?" has no answer. You'd think that when they were losing and LTT was strapped he might have lost once . . . but we know that LTT never lost. Ever. Hence his flipping out when Rand thinks he lost the battle of Ebou Dar- which was a stalemate if anything, both sides fled the field. With Rand outnumbered and outclassed what, 20:1, drawing on LTT's experience?

 

Moghedian gives perhaps the closest we have to an unbiased look at the man- and she complains that he "stank of piety and goodness." Piety doesn't go well with ego-maniacs.

 

The only conclusion I can draw is that LTT wasn't humble about how damned capable he was, and didn't care if he bruised the egos of others or made them feel lesser just by being himself. Incidentally, this would make him the male equivalent of the "She's so pretty, and nice, and smart, and there's nothing wrong with her- don't you just hate her!"

 

 

Here is a few line from countless other lines where people(forsaken mainly) described how LTT was:

 

Lanfear to Rand in Rhuiden

 

"I can remember when you were too softhearted to use . anyone. Devious in battle, hard as stone and arrogant as the -mountains, but open and

softhearted as a girl!"

 

There is many statment like this throughout the series. John, please do us a favour and read the whole series again.

 

As for being Jerk, LTT was as much as a jerk as me or any other man can get.

Nobody is perfect.No one here is claiming here that he was an angle or a Mashiah. But he was an excellent leader and his last strike at Shyol Gule was brilliant and the only action that had to be taken. I see where you going with this, but fact remain, that Latra was the total jerk and acted on arrogance, pride and for political gain.

 

And please don't say what she did after the strike, what-ever she did was redemption. A fool realizing too late.

 

If you read the series with a neutral point of view...you will find some other people like Faile, Egwene, Latra as more of a  Jerk than considered normal in any person in any lifetime.

 

;D ::)

 

And I know you will come up with some other arguments, but I am not going to waste my time responding, unless you read the whole series again.

 

;D ;D ;D ;D

 

You are telling me that you will run to the shadow because you are not getting on well with your officer or friend?You will kill innocent people,destroy city, because  you didn't get along with one of your friend or superior officer??? LTT isn't an excuse for Lanfear. She was born twisted. And trust me I have seen women like these in real life. I have seen where there ambitious can land them. I have seen them selling their body, becoming whore to gain promotion or other privillege.And that wasn't movie.

 

I guess any woman's transgression hurts the men around her more than it does her.I have seen that too.

 

 

Try not to be a jerk, and maybe I'll consider re-reading the series.

 

As we can see, that ain't going to become any more likely than it already is.

 

As for reading the series with a neutral point of view...why the hell would you do that? This isn't history, it's a piece of art. You're supposed to think about it, apply it to yourself personally, and possibly be transformed by it.

 

I'll do what I like with the series, feel what I like about it. Perhaps if you can relate to me something that I'd find interesting, I might re-read some part of the series and maybe feel something different about it, but being a smartass doesn't get you very far on that front, smilies or not.

 

That said, look at the quote you put up again...

 

hard as a stone...yet he's softhearted.

 

One thing is always agreed upon: He was arrogant and arrogance is one of the hallmarks of a jerk.

 

Now, was he actually a jerk? I guess the jury is still out.

 

I personally feel that he's viewed in an idealized manner most of the time, and whether or not he is actually a jerk, it's good to ask questions about him. It makes him a much deeper character.

 

If we look at Rand we see several characters, many who have close ties to him, commenting on his growing arrogance, hardness, stubbornness...

Yet, Rand does wonder to himself about his changes, especially his willingness to use people for what he must accomplish.

There's always this note of doubt though regarding whether or not these personality fluctuations are due to the stress of his circumstances or the influence of Lews Therin.

 

As a result he does often act conflicted, impulsively, arrogantly, even foolishly.

 

So if you act like a jerk, are you actually a jerk? Is it justifiable to act like a jerk?

 

Again, I think Jordan has given us such a rich set of characters, we can ask these questions about his creations legitimately.

If you want to embrace the "it's art" attitude about your opinions, Jonn, you can- but intellectual honesty disbars from simultaneously embracing arguments as to truth and fact. Please pick a position.

 

EDIT: Also, for clarity, recall that it's psychopathic mass murderers bent on world domination full of their own importance, who were stopped in their tracks by this "jerk," who subsequently label him as such. If one were actually into the series, one would notice things like that.

If you want to embrace the "it's art" attitude about your opinions, Jonn, you can- but intellectual honesty disbars from simultaneously embracing arguments as to truth and fact. Please pick a position.

 

EDIT: Also, for clarity, recall that it's psychopathic mass murderers bent on world domination full of their own importance, who were stopped in their tracks by this "jerk," who subsequently label him as such. If one were actually into the series, one would notice things like that.

 

Well Bob, I suppose it's the same as my position of whether one should be fair or neutral when it comes to judging things.

 

I prefer fair.

 

There's no such thing as neutrality in judgment. To make a judgment, one must draw from one's own experiences, views...logic, education...One must relate.

 

What's the first thing you do when someone tells you, "clear your mind of all thought."?

 

Of course, the stay-puffed marsh-mellow man pops into your head and New York gets covered in sugary goo after you cross the streams.

 

Anyways, where was I...

 

Oh yeah. Neutrality asks for us to be unbiased and open and like the proverbial blank sheet about an issue, when the reality is, that this is an impossibility.

 

The truth has to come from yourself, it can't be given to you.

 

If we are really honest, we have to be up front with our positions and opinions, and to really reach the truth we have to examine where these opinions come from within us, and why we apply these truths of self to questions that are posed to us.

 

That's fair.

 

I like discussions where someone states how they feel about something, and then someone asks the question: "Why do you feel that way?" And then you get an answer. As close to honest as a person can manage.

 

That's valuable. That's communication.

 

Say there's a problem and you ask for possible solutions. Someone will answer you from their opinion of what should be done and the most sensible solution will come to the asker from what seems to be the most authoritative response, based on reason, experience and ultimately...trust.

 

Do I trust what you are saying to me, or is there an angle?

 

So Bob, I do consider what my position is on a topic, but I can honestly say that it can change. That might disturb you, but hey. You're free to ask me why I feel a certain way at any given time. 

 

As for Lews Therin...psychopathic or not, he's a bit of a jerk. He doesn't seem to care about the world anymore as much as he pines over his lost Ilyena, who he killed along with all of his family. All he cares about is being able to die again, damn the rest of the living world. Any time Rand even thinks about how he might survive, Lews Therin goes into a froth about it.

 

Now you make note of how the Forsaken are insane and self-absorbed.

What about Lews Therin doesn't sound insane or self-absorbed.

 

And before you hit me with the whole, he went insane trying to save the world nonsense, it was his plan to strike at Shayol Ghul where the Dark One was strongest, he has to uh...live, with the consequences, so to speak.

 

It could be argued that it's because of Lews Therin's shortcomings that our hero Rand is suffering so horribly. Having him in Rand's head is only making him suffer more, yet still all he can think about is himself most of the time. He even contends that Rand is the one making HIM suffer.

 

I don't know, that kind of puts him in the jerk column, whether or not it is his fault that he's there.

You can not compare the Lews Therin of now with how he was from AoL.

 

Lews Therin, in the now, is insane.

 

He blames himself for the Breaking. It wasn't his fault. It was the Shadows'.

 

He blames himself for killing all his blood and loved ones. It wasn't his fault.

 

HE. WAS. INSANE.

Was he a jerk?  Probably.

 

He's as full of himself as any of the Forsaken.  He considers himself to be possibly even greater than sliced bread.

 

Show me a man who doesn't appreciate the sight of a pretty woman and I'll show you a corpse.  Doesn't mean he intends to do any more than look.  In LTT's case, it's pretty obvious that Ilyena had nothing to worry about.

 

So, yeah, he had a big ego and he wasn't shy or particularly self-effacing and that caused problems with others who also had big egos.  From the evidence we have, he didn't let his ego entirely overrun his better nature like the Forsaken did, though.

 

I agree here. You can't really be as powerful and successful as he was during his lifetime and not have a bit of that arrogant attitude. He probably HAD to have it if he wanted to survive. As the old saying goes, nice guys finish last. He had Sammael, Ishamael, and Demandred to deal with, and we all know they were some stuck up bastards. He had to keep making sure he was better than them, and he was. That'd blow anyone's head up. Still, having that stuck up attitude and being a little arrogant at times does not change the fact that he is good in his heart. You can obviously tell from his deeds that he wanted to see people happy, no matter if they were rich or poor. He actually cared for the world. That's a difference between him and the Forsaken, who are just out for themselves really.

 

And as for the OP's comment on him leaving Lanfear out in the cold, she actually loved his position and the status she had as his lover more than she actually loved HIM. Illyena however probably loved him for who he was, which made him much happier with her.

If you want to embrace the "it's art" attitude about your opinions, Jonn, you can- but intellectual honesty disbars from simultaneously embracing arguments as to truth and fact. Please pick a position.

 

EDIT: Also, for clarity, recall that it's psychopathic mass murderers bent on world domination full of their own importance, who were stopped in their tracks by this "jerk," who subsequently label him as such. If one were actually into the series, one would notice things like that.

 

Well Bob, I suppose it's the same as my position of whether one should be fair or neutral when it comes to judging things.

 

I prefer fair.

 

There's no such thing as neutrality in judgment. To make a judgment, one must draw from one's own experiences, views...logic, education...One must relate.

 

What's the first thing you do when someone tells you, "clear your mind of all thought."?

 

Of course, the stay-puffed marsh-mellow man pops into your head and New York gets covered in sugary goo after you cross the streams.

 

Anyways, where was I...

 

Oh yeah. Neutrality asks for us to be unbiased and open and like the proverbial blank sheet about an issue, when the reality is, that this is an impossibility.

 

The truth has to come from yourself, it can't be given to you.

 

If we are really honest, we have to be up front with our positions and opinions, and to really reach the truth we have to examine where these opinions come from within us, and why we apply these truths of self to questions that are posed to us.

 

That's fair.

 

I like discussions where someone states how they feel about something, and then someone asks the question: "Why do you feel that way?" And then you get an answer. As close to honest as a person can manage.

 

That's valuable. That's communication.

 

Say there's a problem and you ask for possible solutions. Someone will answer you from their opinion of what should be done and the most sensible solution will come to the asker from what seems to be the most authoritative response, based on reason, experience and ultimately...trust.

 

Do I trust what you are saying to me, or is there an angle?

 

So Bob, I do consider what my position is on a topic, but I can honestly say that it can change. That might disturb you, but hey. You're free to ask me why I feel a certain way at any given time. 

 

As for Lews Therin...psychopathic or not, he's a bit of a jerk. He doesn't seem to care about the world anymore as much as he pines over his lost Ilyena, who he killed along with all of his family. All he cares about is being able to die again, damn the rest of the living world. Any time Rand even thinks about how he might survive, Lews Therin goes into a froth about it.

 

Now you make note of how the Forsaken are insane and self-absorbed.

What about Lews Therin doesn't sound insane or self-absorbed.

 

And before you hit me with the whole, he went insane trying to save the world nonsense, it was his plan to strike at Shayol Ghul where the Dark One was strongest, he has to uh...live, with the consequences, so to speak.

 

It could be argued that it's because of Lews Therin's shortcomings that our hero Rand is suffering so horribly. Having him in Rand's head is only making him suffer more, yet still all he can think about is himself most of the time. He even contends that Rand is the one making HIM suffer.

 

I don't know, that kind of puts him in the jerk column, whether or not it is his fault that he's there.

 

What I don't understand is why you're still arguing when the Forsaken themselves have already described Lews Therin as a goody two shoes, or when Lanfear says he was softhearted. Teah, he was probably very confident in his abilities, but that doesn't make him a jerk. A jerk to me is someone who doesn't care about others. LTT saved the damn world with his companions. He faced down death itself in Shayol Ghul. Yeah, he got fame, but NO ONE does that just for fame. You gotta have a good cause, and some serious hair on your peaches to muster the courage. He could have just found something else to do if he wanted to gain massive personal fame.

LTT isn't an excuse for Lanfear. She was born twisted. And trust me I have seen women like these in real life. I have seen where there ambitious can land them. I have seen them selling their body, becoming whore to gain promotion or other privillege.And that wasn't movie.

 

I guess any woman's transgression hurts the men around her more than it does her.I have seen that too.

=======

One could say much the same of some men, I think. You, have, however, paid more attention to the women. In any case, as regards using sex to gain privilege, you should recall that this is still a world in which that sometimes may seem to be the only option: the glass ceiling, and all that... We are a long way from getting rid of sexism, and the ``boys club''.

One could say much the same of some men, I think. You, have, however, paid more attention to the women. In any case, as regards using sex to gain privilege, you should recall that this is still a world in which that sometimes may seem to be the only option: the glass ceiling, and all that... We are a long way from getting rid of sexism, and the ``boys club''.

 

*lol*..I am not trying to imply that its all women's fault.I mean who is receiving ends of the sexual favor. Some bastard who call himself a "man" and think with his loin.Man creats these situation and women fall victim. But what I am saying is that women has some potential to become twisted by greed as well. My point was based on Lanfear, who loved LTT mainly because of his power and position.I was implying that it wasn't LTT's fault that she turned to the shadow.

 

As for "Whore" and other sexual impurity, it is the Men who created it.It is also apparent that, usually men is less trustworthy when it comes to sex. Most of the time it is the husband who cheat first.

 

As for using sex for gaining favor, even if it is the only way that doesn't make it right. And it doesn't make the person(Man or Woman) who doing this less of a whore.After all it is selling.

 

;D ;D ;D