here in canada we're about 2 months into series 3, and Torchwood is commin in the fall.  what is torchwood?

I've never watched any of the old Doctor Who Cads, but my friend is a BIG fan- she recommends watching specific episodes though. Personally, I'd start out with the new ones as they are probably easier to get in to :)

 

Torchwood is a spin-off of Doctor Who set in Cardiff- it's much more "adult" in its themes and contents. It is about a team called Torchwood who deal with Alien threats. They are top secret and are lead by Captain Jack who is featured in Season 1 and Season 3. It's pretty good, though a couple of episodes in the middle were a little weird!

Are the old ones worth watching? Netflix ratings show them lower than the new string, so I wasn't sure if I should add them.

 

The episodes from the original run (I hate to call it a previus series, because really the new production is a continuation rather than a remake) are much different than todays show.  For one thing the special effects technology of the day was nothing like todays, and for another they had a VERY low budget with which to do those special effects.  So, for a modern audience there is almost no serial that doesn't have something laughable... a monster that looks like a green penis with an eye, or a creature that is obviously a man wrapped in green painted bubble wrap.  Sets that wobbled, styrofoam rocks, bad CSO - which is like when they do weather on the news and the newsguy is standing in front of a blue or green screen.  Except the technology in those days meant it was very obvious that the actors were in front of a screen.

 

Also, the pace was much slower.  The stories were usually told in serials of 4 or 6 half hour episodes. They were sometimes formulaic and would have a lot of running around: get captured-escape-get captured again-escape- run through corridors mentatality  Sometimes the acting was way over the top or very wooden.  Some eras in the run were extremely camp, so much so to make the new series seem serious in comparison.

 

But if you have a strong suspension of disbelief and you can get past all that, there is some great cult sci-fi fantasy in there.  The main gist has never altered, and that is why the show has gone on so long.  No matter who is in creative control and who is playing the characters, whether the story is from 1963 or 2007, it is about a mysterious being from another world who travels through space and time having imagination inspiring adventures. 

 

 

My recommendations - I will recommend some stories based on important continuity events, relevence to the new series, and also inluding stories considered to be 'classic' by the DW community at large out of those currently available on DVD. (note- unless I note otherwise, only disc 1 will be needed for the episodes. Most 2 disc sets only have extra features on disc 2)

 

First Doctor,William Harnell 1963-1966 (if you don't mind slow paced black and white stories)

 

1. An Unearthly Child - The very first serial.  It's worth it for the first great classic episode which sets up the series, though the next three episodes which round out thier first adventure are a run-around.

 

2. The Daleks - The second serial intoduced the Daleks, the doctors arch-enemies and the shows arch-villain.  This is a great chance to see their origins.

 

3. The Aztecs - a staple of the first Doctor's era was the 'historical adventure' and this was maybe the best of them.

 

4. The Dalek Invasion of Earth- more Hot Dalek Action as crew lands in a somewhat near future earth that was invaded and conquered by the Daleks 10 years prior (it's not said in the story, but later continuity puts the setting at 2167 AD).

 

 

 

The Second Doctor, Patrick Troughton 1966-1969  Much of the first two Doctors eras were destroyed, leaving only audio for the stories.  The second Doctor's era was the hardest hit.

 

1. The Invasion (discs 1 & 2 are needed)- The first existing story with the Brigadier, one of the most important recurring characters in the shows history.  Also the last of the original Cyberman serials.  Two of the episodes were recreated with animation because the video no longer exists.

 

The Third Doctor, Jon Pertwee 1970-1974

 

1. Spearhead from Space The Doctor has been banished to earth by the Timelords for interfering in history.  He has also been forced to regenerate.  This is the Third Doctor's first story, as well as the debut of the Autons and the Nestene Consciousness (who were both featured in the New Series premiere, "Rose").

 

2. Inferno - There is a contingent of fans that will tell you this is the best Doctor Who story ever made...

 

3. The Claws of Axos - Currently the only classic series DVD featuring the first incarnation of the Doctor's arch-nemesis, The Master.

 

 

The Fourth Doctor, Tom Baker 1974-1981  This will be the longest list, as he had the longest run in the shows history in all aspects, and is generally thought of as best Doctor

 

The first season story arc - all the stories of the 4th docs first season are available save the last one, Revenge of the Cybermen, and since they are all connected by a story arc, I will list them all. 

 

1. Robot

2. The Ark in Space

3. The Sontaren Experiment

4. Genesis of the Daleks

 

The Sontaren Experiment is a two episode serial, so you may want to skip that one if you don't feel it is long enough to warrant a rent.  Conversely, Ark and Genesis are considered classics, especially Genesis which has another contingent calling it the greatest DW serial ever, so you may want to bear that in mind should you only pick and choose from my recommendations...

 

5. Pyramids of Mars - considered a classic by many, always near the top of favorites polls.

 

6. The Hand of Fear - there may be a slight connection the new series in this one. ;)

 

7. The Robots of Death - another classic and fan favorite.

 

8. The Talons of Weng Chiang- another some will say is the best DW story ever.

 

9. City of Death - another classic, famous for having the biggest television audience for the series run, though the only other channel available was on strike or something.

 

Tom Bakers final two stories were part of a trilogy that was recently released.

 

10. The Keeper of Traken

11. Logopolis

 

The Fifth Doctor, Peter Davison 1981-1984

 

1. Castrovalva- The Fifth Doctors first story...

 

2. Earthshock- The most shocking DW story of all, enough said.  Don't ruin the surprises by reading the synopsis or anything...

 

3. The Five Doctors- The 20th anniversary reunion story was a camp runaround, but lots of fun.  Maybe my favorite of all time.

 

4. Resurrection of the Daleks- A bleak and violent but powerful story.  One of the deeper serials in the run. 

 

5. The Caves of Androzani - Another of those some will tell you is the best ever.

 

The Sixth Doctor, Colin Baker 1984-1986 Colin's era is where the show started to decline, through no fault of his own.  The designs and costumes started getting really campy, and he was saddled with the worst outfit of any doctor.  Too bad, cause he was really good if you look past it, and is still one of the strongest ambassadors for the show.

 

1. The Mark of the Rani - The Doctor goes up against the Master again, as well as another renegade Timelord (or Timelady if you prefer), The Rani.

 

2. The Two Doctors - Patrick Troughton makes his final appearance in the series in the last multi-doctor story of the original run.

 

The Seventh Doctor, Sylvester McCoy 1987-1989  He is the original series least popular Doctor, but still has a legion of fans that call him their favorite.  Part of this was because of his extremely camp first season (none of which has been released on DVD yet), though he became darker and more mysterious starting with his second season and the show began regaining popularity, though it was too little too late, and the show got the ax. 

 

1. Rememberance of the Daleks - The first story of the 25th anniversary season sees the Doctor and Ace coming full circle back at the shows beginnings... Potters Lane, 1963. (There's a gaping continuity gap in it, but that's best ignored.  The show was never that great at strict continuity anyway. ;D)

 

The final three will be the last 3 stories of the series run.  They had an arc between them which had to do with character development for Ace, and they are generally the best regarded stories of McCoy's run.  McCoy fans might tell you the second of them is the best DW story ever.

 

2. Ghost Light -it's actually a bit convoluted and confusing, best not to try and figure it all out.

3. The Curse of Fenric

4. Survival

 

The Doctor would return for a television movie cross produced with an American studio featuring McCoy returning to regenerate into the Eight doctor, Paul McGann in 1996 with the hopes of a new series being picked up, but it wans't picked up in the US, though it had great ratings in the UK.  Unfortunately, due to legalities with the American studio, the TV movie is not available on DVD in the US, and it does not appear that it ever will be.

 

Eccleston was the ninth doctor, and Tennant is the tenth, so this pretty much catches you up.  There are alot more original series DVD's besides this to watch, and more coming out all the time, especially now that DW is popular again.

 

If this list is too daunting and you would like a shorter list to start off with, I suggest trying The Talons of Weng Chiang, City of Death, The Five Doctors, Earthshock, Pyramids of Mars, Inferno, and Genesis of the Daleks to begin with. :)

Torchwood is a spin-off of Doctor Who set in Cardiff- it's much more "adult" in its themes and contents. It is about a team called Torchwood who deal with Alien threats. They are top secret and are lead by Captain Jack who is featured in Season 1 and Season 3. It's pretty good, though a couple of episodes in the middle were a little weird!

 

The first season of Torchwood aired between seasons 2 and 3 of the New Series(though for us it is being shown AFTER series 3, so we should bear that in mind).  Season 2 of DW actually has Torchwood as its running theme (like 'Bad Wolf' in season 1) and sets the series up a little.

 

Trivia: The name 'Torchwood' itself is an anagram of 'Doctor Who'.  Russel T. Davies originally used the name as a codename for the first series to protect the scripts...

Thanks for that thorough rundown, Outsider! I'll be sure to check out some of those recommended stories.  :)

My votes for the best old-school stories, but I'm unsure which are available or not on DVD at the moment:

 

The William Hartnell Era: 1963-66, Seasons 1-4

An Unearthly Child: Only Episode 1. The very first Who episode, still effectively mysterious and creepy.

 

The Dead Planet: Sometimes irritatingly called The Daleks. The second-ever Doctor Who story and an effective use of weirdness and suspense in the first two episodes before the Daleks show up for the first time. The latter part of the story drags terribly though, and the way the Thals realise that blind pacifism is sometimes wrong is pure Goodkind.

 

The Dalek Invasion of Earth: Doctor Who's first big-budget story (still looks a bit naff though), a war epic which has Earth in 2164 under Dalek occupation. The story is well-paced and the shots of Daleks on Tower Bridge are still impressive.

 

The Patrick Troughton Era: 1966-69, Seasons 4-6

The 'Monster Season' (Season 5): pretty much great stuff from start to finish, featuring two Cybermen stories (Tomb of the Cybermen and The Wheel in Space) and introduced both the robotic yeti (in The Abominable Snowmen) and Brigadier (then Colonel) Lethbridge-Stewart (in The Web of Fear), alongside the mighty Ice Warriors.

 

The Invasion: introduces UNIT, under now-Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart's command, and has them battling the Cybermen in a full-scale invasion of London in the 1970s. Impressive stuff.

 

The War Games: at ten episodes this is the third-longest Who story ever, but the clever premise means it can refresh itself before running out of steam. Introduces the Time Lords and Gallifrey and in the War Lord has a particularly evil (if camp) villain.

 

The Jon Pertwee Era: 1970-74, Seasons 7-11

Spearhead from Space: introduces the Autons and the Nesten Conciousness, and sets up the format for the next few seasons, with the Doctor and UNIT teaming up to take on an alien foe.

 

'The Master Season' (Season 8): introduces the Master, who battles the Doctor repeatedly across several serials before being defeated (not forever, obviously) in  the classic serial The Daemons.

 

Day of the Daleks: Who at its most science-fictional. An excellent temporal paradox premise; careful, measured use of the Daleks (back after a five-year break), a exceptionally three-dimensional 'villain' in the Controller and an impressive final battle (UNIT versus the Daleks) all make for a great story. It even survives the Ogrons (the extremely dumb henchmen of the Daleks) and a slightly ridiculous quad-bike chase sequence.

 

The Curse of Peladon: a mildly revisionist Who story set in a distant future where mankind has allied itself with the now-peaceful Ice Warriors (think of the Federation/Klingon alliance) and the Doctor has to overcome his own prejudices towards his former foes whilst another enemy is at work.

 

The Time Warrior: a cheesy medieval-set story featuring the first appearance of the Sontarans and, interestingly, the first-ever mention of Gallifrey (although the planet had appeared twice onscreen before this). Also notable for introducing Sarah-Jane Smith, probably the Doctor's most popular companion.

 

The Tom Baker Era (1974-81, Seasons 12-18)

The Ark in Space: present producer Russell T. Davies' favourite Who serial, and it's easy to see why. A creeping sense of menace and fear (a similar premise to Alien although made five years earlier), a logically-developed storyline and an intriguing villain, coincide with Tom Baker hitting the ball out of the park in only his second outing as the Doctor. Contains his legendary 'Indomitable Homo Sapiens' speech, probably the best explanation as to why the Doctor hangs out with humans so much:

 

"Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable."

 

Genesis of the Daleks: the best Dalek story ever. Exceptionally brutal and violent for its time, this is a hard-edged story of apocalyptic war and insanity. Introduces Davros and shows how the Daleks were first created, whilst the Doctor struggles with his orders from the Time Lords to obliterate the Daleks from existence. This serial was later retconned to be the opening salvo in the Time War.

 

City of Death: the funniest Who story of them all (it's written by Douglas Adams under a pseudonym, which explains it), featuring some great lines and a nice cameo from John Cleese. The fact it's set in Paris (with real location filming there) works very nicely and Julian Glover makes for a great villain, even when he's wearing the most ludicrous make-up ever. You wish the idiotic Duggen would become a regular companion since his instinctive reaction to every situation - to deck the nearest person you don't like the look of - would probably solve most adventures before they begin. Also the highest-rated serial in Who history, attracting nearly 17 million viewers.

 

Logopolis: a mildly puzzling SF storyline involving temporal paradoxes and the Master, and features a bizarre subplot when the TARDIS materialises inside another TARDIS. Worth it for the epic conclusion as Tom Baker bows out of the show after seven years.

 

The Peter Davison Era: 1981-1984, Seasons 19-21)

Earthshock: introduces the new, mildly ridiculous and inexplicably mid-Atlantic-accented Cybermen ("EXCELLENT!") with some scene-chewing support acting and an impressive war storyline, culminating the much-wished-for death of a particularly annoying companion.

 

The Five Doctors: the televisual equivalent of a massive knees-up, as Doctor Who celebrates its 20th anniversary by hurling all five Doctors (aside from the late William Hartnell, who is replaced with a dignified performance by Richard Hurndall) and a 'greatest hits' selection of monsters and companions into a single story. It's all tremendous fun (especially the Dalek stupidly blowing itself up and the various groups of Cybermen being wiped out) with some nice twists along the way. The Second Doctor/Third Doctor relationship is particularly amusing.

 

Resurrection of the Daleks: the bloodiest Who story of them all, with I believe only two members of the incidental cast surviving the end of the story (one of whom dies even more horribly in Attack of the Cybermen the following year). The story sows the seeds of the Dalek Civil War storyline that unfolds over the next two Dalek stories and also continues the Time War plot, with the Daleks apparently trying to take revenge for the Time Lords trying to wipe them out back in Genesis of the Daleks. The story makes an important point about the death and destruction that follow the Doctor wherever he goes.

 

The Caves of Androzani: Peter Davison bows out with an incredibly strong serial based around the truly insane Sharaz Jek (the actor sells it completely). Even Peri, one of the more passive companions, has some good stuff to do here. Davison remains (jokingly) put out that during his regeneration scene (one of the best) his acting is overshadowed by the, erm, creative camera angles the director chose which shows off actress Nicola Bryant's cleavage, to the detriment of the Fifth Doctor's demise. This is the first time it's made clear that regeneration can lead to death if anything goes wrong with the process (the extremely erratic nature of the Sixth Doctor is blamed on the Fifth's traumatic regeneration).

 

The Colin Baker Era: 1984-86, Seasons 21-23

Revelation of the Daleks: Colin Baker got a shitty deal from the BBC, as he took over during arguably the most creatively challenged period on the show's history and suffered from the decision to make his Doctor more unlikable than his predecessors (not a good move). Later on he had the indignity of being fired from the programme. Nevertheless, he had a lot of good points and Revelation is probably his strongest serial as the Doctor. The Dalek Civil War storyline continues and Davros reappears.

 

The Sylvester McCoy Era: 1987-89, Seasons 24-26

Remembrance of the Daleks: this serial contains some seriously hoky acting from the guest stars, but it has a lot to commend it. McCoy is on good form, there's some great character-building for Ace and it's the first and I believe only time in Who's history that the Doctor himself sets in motion the chain of events in the storyline for an exterior motive. The Doctor's obliteration of Skaro is apparently the moment the surviving Daleks chose to wage all-out war against the Time Lords (setting in motion the Time War that led to their mutual destruction). The Dalek-on-Dalek battles remain highly impressive and Davros is, for once, used very, very sparingly.

 

The Curse of Fenric: the Doctor and Ace become embroiled in Norse mythology and a covert operation by Russian soldiers to steal technology from their British allies in WWII.

 

Survival: actually, a pretty shite serial, but worth it for the final line, in retrospect highly fitting given the show went off the air for 16 years afterwards:

 

"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream. People made of smoke, and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there’s injustice, and somewhere else the tea's getting cold! Come on, Ace! We’ve got work to do!"

Tennant is a bloody good actor, no doubt about that. he's just to bloody young, too "jumpy", if you catch my drift.

My votes for the best old-school stories, but I'm unsure which are available or not on DVD at the moment:

 

(ETC.)

....

 

The only ones listed above that are not on my list that are available on DVD are The Tomb of the Cybermen, which I almost listed, and Revelation of the Daleks, which is a good story, well liked by Who fans, but which also has an extremely high Camp factor in places, with some very campy, over the top characters, so one I wouldn't show to newbies right off, personally. :)

 

 

The Dead Planet: Sometimes irritatingly called The Daleks. The second-ever Doctor Who story ...

 

Nothing like confusing a new fan by giving them a title to a story that they won't find on the DVD...  (Cads: the title you'll find on DVD's and old VHS tapes is "The Daleks".  Old DW fans who called it by a different name before the VHS release like to argue with newer fans about what the "real" correct name should be.  The fans who argue these poinst non-stop are called 'anoraks' or 'sad fans', and are the Doctor Who equivalent of hardcore trekkies.  It's best to avoid and ignore these kinds of debates. ;))

 

:P

 

 

 

 

I am now officially overwhelmed with Doctor Who info. Fortunately for me, my season 2 dvd's have begun arriving and therefore I can put off deciding about the older series until I have had sufficient time to process.  ;D

 

As for David Tennant, I like him just fine. I think I prefer Eccleston's "serious" Doctor moments by a small margin, but I'm enjoying the younger Tennant's opportunities to engage in flirtation (with various females) without some character mentioning for the 80th time that he's too old for Rose.

 

 

About Torchwood, I just saw the ep where it's begun by the Queen, and it seems as though it was designed to combat the Doctor himself, alongside whatever other aliens necessary. Does that change at some point, since Captain Jack will be leading it in the upcoming eps? They seemed so friendly in season 1. Although I suppose it would be an interesting plot point to have Torchwood at odds with the Doctor, especially considering Jack's history with him.

The Dead Planet was the official name (more or less) up until the 25th anniversary book and the video release (in 1989, IIRC) which swapped it over and The Daleks is now the most common title for the serial. I don't have a problem with that (and yes, some fans will argue about that to ludicrous extremes), I just don't think it's as effective a title as the original.

 

Actually, one of the hallmarks of a Doctor Who Dalek story is that the Daleks generally don't turn up until the cliffhanger ending of Episode 1 of each serial. However, this cunning method of ensuring tension was undermined by 1) massive publicity, usually including Radio Times covers and them appearing in trailers the week before; and 2) the word 'Dalek' appearing somewhere in the title.

 

About Torchwood, I just saw the ep where it's begun by the Queen, and it seems as though it was designed to combat the Doctor himself, alongside whatever other aliens necessary. Does that change at some point, since Captain Jack will be leading it in the upcoming eps? They seemed so friendly in season 1. Although I suppose it would be an interesting plot point to have Torchwood at odds with the Doctor, especially considering Jack's history with him.

 

I haven't seen Torchwood yet and so I don't know all the details, but in order to not give away any spoilers, lets suffice it to say that Captain Jack is not at all in Season 2 of DW, and so, as he is the leader of Torchwood in the Torchwood series, The Torchwood group must therefore undergo a change of management at some point after the second series of DW and before the first series of Torchwood.

City of Death: the funniest Who story of them all (it's written by Douglas Adams under a pseudonym, which explains it), featuring some great lines and a nice cameo from John Cleese. The fact it's set in Paris (with real location filming there) works very nicely and Julian Glover makes for a great villain, even when he's wearing the most ludicrous make-up ever. You wish the idiotic Duggen would become a regular companion since his instinctive reaction to every situation - to deck the nearest person you don't like the look of - would probably solve most adventures before they begin. Also the highest-rated serial in Who history, attracting nearly 17 million viewers.

 

The more I think about it... I think I would recommend trying this story first... if you aren't going to start at the beginning and and go through the list chronologically that is.  It's a very quotable and very memorable story, with some great chemistry from the stars.

 

It has.... a bouquet.

 

Plus, if you ever go to Paris after this one, you'll have to fight the urge to shout "Bye bye, Duggan" from the top of the Eiffel Tower.  ;D

 

Of course, after you watch the next episode, you may want to see a story from a little earlier in Tom's run as the fourth Doctor...

After you watch Season 2 of Doctor Who and the intro episodes of Torchwood Cads, everything will make sense ;)

Doctor Who will return for a fourth season in 2008, but the fifth season will not air until spring 2010, according to the BBC. There will be three TV movie specials in 2009 to keep the show in the public eye, however.

 

Various reasons have been cited for the rest. The most common are a combination of the BBC wanting to spend the time making the show properly in HD (at the moment it isn't filmed in HD) and producer Russell T. Davies and star David Tennant both wanting a 'break' from the show's gruelling production schedule, which takes up nine months of each year. Tennant has already revealed how he will be spending his time off, by performing in Hamlet with the Royal Shakespeare Company (alongside Patrick Stewart, no less) in the summer and autumn of 2008.

 

The news is intriguing about Russel T. Davies. He'd been widely tipped to step down at the end of Season 4, having achieved most of his goals for the series (bringing back the Daleks, Cybermen, the Master and an as-yet unidentitifed 'classic enemy' for Season 4, rumoured to be Davros), and writer Stephen Moffat (who's just won his second Hugo Award for his work on the show) had been hinted at possibly taking over. It sounds like the BBC is so keen on him staying on they've agreed to this highly unusual format shift to accomodate his desire to work on some other projects.

 

Press Release here.

 

I read this earlier today on Ceefax. It did come as a bit of a shock, but they make a great team. Let's hope there isn't a split.

Torchwood starts airing in the U.S. this Saturday the 8th on BBC America. I have see the first three episode and it is definitely more adult than DW.

GC

Torchwood is definately more adult orintated, and not for the kiddies hour.

Based on the opinions I have read from the brits here, I have Torchwood ready to record this weekend. 

 

I thoroughly enjoyed Jekyll and wish there were more.

Empy, I loved torchwood, but my boss didn't so still mixed, but it's fun, I hope you do enjoy it.

 

Jekyll, was weird, though I did like it..he's a good actor, can't think of his name something Nesbit I think.

It was weird but fresh.  The acting was what won me over as well. 

 

Well I will let you know what I think of torchwood... probably need to start a new thread on it after this weekend!

Curse you people with cable TV!  ;D

 

*has to wait until next year for more Dr Who or Torchwood on dvd*

Curse you people with cable TV!  ;D

 

*has to wait until next year for more Dr Who or Torchwood on dvd*

 

It's not quite THAT bad...  Season 3 is out on DVD on November 6th, so that is only a two month wait, and then Torchwood is out in January but that is only 4 months.  Plus you have a whole list of Classic Series stuff to sample while you wait!  :)

Oh! That's fabulous. And you're right, I have oldies. I actually watched Pirate Planet this weekend while I was in LA. I couldn't sign onto DM for some reason, so I just chose one highly rated by Netflix users. It was a Douglas Adams serial, I think. The Doc had cold sores...  :-\

Oh! That's fabulous. And you're right, I have oldies. I actually watched Pirate Planet this weekend while I was in LA. I couldn't sign onto DM for some reason, so I just chose one highly rated by Netflix users. It was a Douglas Adams serial, I think. The Doc had cold sores...  :-\

 

The Pirate Planet... a fun story I guess... some funny parts with the jelly babies... but also plagued by some really over-the-top overacting from the lead villain, and some very unenthusiastic extras... The part where the extras are supposed to be celebrating something with a cheer is pretty embarassing.  It had some interesting ideas though...  From that season though, I prefer The Ribos Operation, Stones of Blood, or The Androids of Tara... :)

 

Douglas Adams was actually the Script Editor for Doctor Who back in the late 70's, so even stories that were written by others often had a lot of his influence in them.

Hehe, yes, the Pirate was unbelievably loud and angry allthetime. Which is too bad, since I chose it based on the fact that it was about a pirate/pirates! I've now gotten your lists all set up and found out which are on Netflix Watch Instantly, and which I may have to order on disc.  :)