Wow, this recasting came as a surprise. Hope that Barney's okay.

Yeah, that was a shocker.  Does anyone know when he got off Twitter and Instagram?  I thought he was on there often posting little bits on the show but now he doesn't exist on there.

I love all the posts and wish I could just address everything that it made me think of, but I think I am just going to sit here with those thoughts. Knowing we really all just want to same: not to be disappointed ... too much.

 

What if the series is a success, and actually really decent storytelling ... but none of the fans like it...? I think I could get over it not being WoT-of-my-mind, if the storytelling is good enough.

 

As for the recasting: recasting can be down to so many things. In the series Spartacus they had to recast for a horrible reason. Let's just hope that this is for other reasons. Happier reasons.

 

Last thing about trailers in general: there have been many trailers that looked awesome to me and then disappointed me a lot in cinema/on screen. Or the other way around. But look at how well Dune is doing when a lot of people said it would bomb. And one could argue that Dune is all about Paul, a messiah-like figure, surrounded by female 'witches' and with a lot of male bonding and a father figure, and ... wait. Fremen ... Aiel?

 

The time could just be right.

 

18 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

Last thing about trailers in general: there have been many trailers that looked awesome to me and then disappointed me a lot in cinema/on screen. Or the other way around. But look at how well Dune is doing when a lot of people said it would bomb. And one could argue that Dune is all about Paul, a messiah-like figure, surrounded by female 'witches' and with a lot of male bonding and a father figure, and ... wait. Fremen ... Aiel?

 

The time could just be right.

 

How is 'Dune' doing well?  It hasn't been released yet.  Or are you talking about buzz?  In which case, to your point, who cares?  There have been movies with great buzz that flopped horribly and vice versa - so we will see.

 

And yes, several parallels between Dune and WoT.  I've read the original Dune almost as many times as I have EotW.  Something about low tech desert warriors...

16 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

How is 'Dune' doing well?  It hasn't been released yet.  Or are you talking about buzz?  In which case, to your point, who cares?  There have been movies with great buzz that flopped horribly and vice versa - so we will see.

 

And yes, several parallels between Dune and WoT.  I've read the original Dune almost as many times as I have EotW.  Something about low tech desert warriors...

It has been released, just in the states. I saw it yesterday! It has been doing really well in post-pandemic figures in countries where it has opened. 

4 minutes ago, Morani said:

It has been released, just in the states. I saw it yesterday! It has been doing really well in post-pandemic figures in countries where it has opened. 

Not in the states it hasn't...

12 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Not in the states it hasn't...

Sorry, was supposed to say "just NOT in the states". Those silly negations. 

8 minutes ago, Morani said:

Sorry, was supposed to say "just NOT in the states". Those silly negations. 

Ah.  I'm looking forward to this movie as much as WoT.  Did not like the original 1980's version much.  Sci-Fi channel version was better but had atrocious special effects.  Hoping this one pulls it all together!

On 9/17/2021 at 9:24 PM, DaddyFinn said:

The same questions (well, most of them) have been answered again and again and again. Wait and watch and then make your judgement. Or at least wait for the story trailer ?

Source for this? They are trying to keep Rand's true identity hidden as long as they can. Never have I ever heard anything about shoving feminism into it. Logain's early story is an excellent way to show the audience the dangers of saidin and WT politics and Aes Sedai's capabilities. That makes the stakes higher when Rand being DR is revealed.

 

Again, source for this? Every Q&A he has made has only solidified that every change they make must have a good reason. They won't make a book-by-book adaptation but adaptation of the whole series. That will allow them to smooth out the rough parts of the books and make the story flow nicely without too much boring stuff. IMO that is the right way of doing this.

 

BUT in the end, we won't how good the show is until we have watched it. We can just hope for the best. ?

"I’m a feminist and it’s very important to me that the show is feminist in today’s context. So a lot of those things will be changing" Rafe Judkins on Twitter. 

 

Excerpt from Q/A with Rafe: 

Question

will Rand's romance plot remain close to the books? I mean, liking one girl at first but ending up with three in the end?

Rafe Judkins

No

Rafe Judkins (5 hours later)

Let’s just say I’m much more interested in polyamory than polygamy. And maybe give me a little more credit than assuming I’m gonna gut that entire story and ruin everything off a one word answer? ?

On 9/17/2021 at 11:05 PM, thehumantrashcan said:

Agreed.  We've got a good community here.  I much prefer talking about this here than the Facebook group I am a part of for WoT.

Agreed twice! I was expecting this post to get burned down, but there's been a lot of great discussion. Thanks guys!

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

How is 'Dune' doing well?  It hasn't been released yet.  Or are you talking about buzz?  In which case, to your point, who cares?  There have been movies with great buzz that flopped horribly and vice versa - so we will see.

 

And yes, several parallels between Dune and WoT.  I've read the original Dune almost as many times as I have EotW.  Something about low tech desert warriors...

I saw it last Friday. It was packed (well, as far as it could with the Covid rules in cinemas in The Netherlands. It's been out in Europe, I know it's been showing in Spain and Germany, as well as here. It's not buzz. Here it is an actual success, for such a complex story and a 'show, not tell' approach. I'm impressed.

On 9/19/2021 at 7:30 PM, JaimAybara said:

Maybe I’m crazy, but my main concern so far is costume design, culture, and accents. (Not a lot from anyone other than Moiraine voice wise so far so I will go over the first two).
 

I’m not mad about more color and vibrancy, but the oversimplified monochromatic / highly similar style of clothing from what appears to be different parts of their journey irks me. I can see it within Emond’s Field and other parts of Andor, but where is the upscale shift after leaving The Two Rivers? The only significant change I saw was Siuan haha which is hilarious to me since she was vehemently against dressing fancy, but maybe someone has a sense of humor or they wanted to give a sense of majesty for newcomers. (It could just not be in the trailer, but what I did see has me apprehensive.)

 

Yes, one of the inside joke critiques in Wheel of Time fandom is the lengthy description of dresses and clothing…but it would be a great disservice to the different cultures and peoples he created in the books if they don’t pay close attention to detail regarding something painstakingly described in the series. I think this is one of the root causes of “generic fantasy” comments online. The red Ajah shot was horribly uninspired in my opinion. None of them have lingering styles from their past lives before being raised Aes Sedai? I never got the notion they were so similar, unless they were dressed for court maybe.

 

I hope we get a distinct culture of Caemlyn, a representation of the Daes  Dae’mar in Cairhien, and the knife necklaces and duels of Ebou Dar…the personality of Saldaeans, the Aiel, and Malkieri etc. but if everyone has cheap outfits or wardrobes that appear to be of similar origin, style, and make, it will severely diminish and take away from the overall experience. Not to mention, paying attention to cultural norms, accents, and dress is one of the best ways to make you feel like they have journeyed somewhere without relying only on landscape shots.  

This stuff worried me too, but I forgot to mention it in the post. It kinda reminds me of that show The Seeker which was based off Wizard's First Rule. That's not a good thing haha As many people have pointed out, most of my concerns could certainly amount to nothing. The show could be great! But it's difficult to look at poor aesthetic choices in the trailer and believe that the entire show won't be like that. I WANT TO BELIEVE!!!! haha

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

This stuff worried me too, but I forgot to mention it in the post. It kinda reminds me of that show The Seeker which was based off Wizard's First Rule. That's not a good thing haha As many people have pointed out, most of my concerns could certainly amount to nothing. The show could be great! But it's difficult to look at poor aesthetic choices in the trailer and believe that the entire show won't be like that. I WANT TO BELIEVE!!!! haha

I did have slight worries about that too. I never saw The Seeker properly (I kinda went off the books for some reason and then the series was bleh). But if my worst nightmares come true, it will be like that and I won't watch. I respect myself too much to watch a show that makes me cringe...

 

But I am optimistic by nature (mostly. There are subjects I am very pessimistic about). So I will just look forward without worrying about things I cannot change.

22 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

"I’m a feminist and it’s very important to me that the show is feminist in today’s context. So a lot of those things will be changing" Rafe Judkins on Twitter. 

 

Excerpt from Q/A with Rafe: 

Question

will Rand's romance plot remain close to the books? I mean, liking one girl at first but ending up with three in the end?

Rafe Judkins

No

Rafe Judkins (5 hours later)

Let’s just say I’m much more interested in polyamory than polygamy. And maybe give me a little more credit than assuming I’m gonna gut that entire story and ruin everything off a one word answer? ?

Speaking of stuff I’d like to Balefire…. Yes, this is concerning. I’m just gonna remain hopeful that the story doesn’t get derailed and the woke isn’t too distracting. All we can do is wait and see and remain hopeful. 

Edited September 21, 20213 yr by Beidomon

26 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

"I’m a feminist and it’s very important to me that the show is feminist in today’s context. So a lot of those things will be changing" Rafe Judkins on Twitter. 

 

Excerpt from Q/A with Rafe: 

Question

will Rand's romance plot remain close to the books? I mean, liking one girl at first but ending up with three in the end?

Rafe Judkins

No

Rafe Judkins (5 hours later)

Let’s just say I’m much more interested in polyamory than polygamy. And maybe give me a little more credit than assuming I’m gonna gut that entire story and ruin everything off a one word answer? ?

Okay, that modern feminism crap might be bad. We will see. I'm not concerned about possible polyamory. 

30 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

"I’m a feminist and it’s very important to me that the show is feminist in today’s context. So a lot of those things will be changing" Rafe Judkins on Twitter. 

I take this to mean that RJ's unfortunate habit of subjecting his female characters to shame-based punishments like spanking will be erased.

 

32 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Question

will Rand's romance plot remain close to the books? I mean, liking one girl at first but ending up with three in the end?

Rafe Judkins

No

Rafe Judkins (5 hours later)

Let’s just say I’m much more interested in polyamory than polygamy. And maybe give me a little more credit than assuming I’m gonna gut that entire story and ruin everything off a one word answer? ?

 

I take this to mean that there will be some work done on the romances (which, let's face it, were not Jordan's strong suit) to make them more believable. And they will probably soften or completely change the "Rand is so awesome that he has three beautiful women who can't resist him" plot point.

 

Doing those things doesn't have to devolve into sermonizing or moralizing (an Aesop, as another commenter astutely commented), which is where I usually draw the line for what constitutes "wokeness" in arts and entertainment.

On 9/20/2021 at 3:44 PM, Beidomon said:

You don’t have to do that. Really. It’s a few folks getting oddly bent out of shape over something that none of them is really in a good position to speak to authoritatively. In other words, the Internet.

 

100 of us could each read a description of… anything, even RJ’s most painfully detailed descriptions, and envision 100 different things. Nobody knows exactly what WOT is supposed to look like. I think some folks probably have the book art in their heads. Well the book art is by and large pretty awful, to be honest.

 

I couldn’t care less about a few goofy props of that outdoor living space waygate. It’s the story that matters. Get the story right, and all will be well.

This is a point that I hear with regards to a lot of things. Particularly anime haha I also hear this as a defense of Brandon Sanderson's bland prose. However, while I can respect that other people value story so highly, I've never quite bought the idea that somehow aesthetic and narrative are entirely separate. Aesthetic can deepen engagement in a narrative or totally take you out. In many ways, aesthetic is a key difference between reading a WoT plot summary on Wikipedia and experiencing the books themselves. It's a bit of an esoteric point which I'm sure I've botched, but I do think it's something worth considering. 

On 9/21/2021 at 10:16 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I take this to mean that RJ's unfortunate habit of subjecting his female characters to shame-based punishments like spanking will be erased.

 

 

I take this to mean that there will be some work done on the romances (which, let's face it, were not Jordan's strong suit) to make them more believable. And they will probably soften or completely change the "Rand is so awesome that he has three beautiful women who can't resist him" plot point.

 

Doing those things doesn't have to devolve into sermonizing or moralizing (an Aesop, as another commenter astutely commented), which is where I usually draw the line for what constitutes "wokeness" in arts and entertainment.

You're correct! It doesn't have to devolve to that. But it so often does. I look forward to being proven wrong! 

However, I do think that takes like Rafe's are given more slack than they deserve. What I mean by this is that if the show was being run by a devout Catholic who said in an interview, "I'm not a fan of how the Children of the Light are portrayed. They're so villainous!" and then implied that they would make changes to accommodate their own sensibilities, they would receive much more flak than Rafe's comments. 

In a year, I hope to come back to this comment and eat a full serving of crow! I want to be wrong! haha 

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I take this to mean that RJ's unfortunate habit of subjecting his female characters to shame-based punishments like spanking will be erased.

 

 

I take this to mean that there will be some work done on the romances (which, let's face it, were not Jordan's strong suit) to make them more believable. And they will probably soften or completely change the "Rand is so awesome that he has three beautiful women who can't resist him" plot point.

 

Doing those things doesn't have to devolve into sermonizing or moralizing (an Aesop, as another commenter astutely commented), which is where I usually draw the line for what constitutes "wokeness" in arts and entertainment.

I appreciate your optimism and I hope you’re right. Your interpretations are certainly reasonable - and frankly I would welcome those sort of changes. Thanks for trying to keep some of us off the ledge.

On 9/21/2021 at 10:08 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Okay, that modern feminism crap might be bad. We will see. I'm not concerned about possible polyamory. 

Yeah, the polyamory/polygamy thing is definitely a nitpick. In practice, it really wouldn't change the series much. 

2 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

This stuff worried me too, but I forgot to mention it in the post. It kinda reminds me of that show The Seeker which was based off Wizard's First Rule. That's not a good thing haha As many people have pointed out, most of my concerns could certainly amount to nothing. The show could be great! But it's difficult to look at poor aesthetic choices in the trailer and believe that the entire show won't be like that. I WANT TO BELIEVE!!!! haha

 

A good thing to keep in mind when people mention the Legend of the Seeker adaptation is that we, as fans, don't know all the details in what was purchased when the production company obtained the rights to the book or series.   They may have only obtained the rights to the first book, the first book and some specific characters, etc.  That is the situation that Sony found itself in with Spiderman once Marvel decided to do the MCU.  Sony had the rights to Spiderman and some of Spiderman's associated villains but they did not have the rights to other Marvel characters.   Things got messy for Sony when Marvel decided to do the MCU.

 

Another example to look at might be the Dresden Files adaptation that the author described as "The show is not the books. It is not meant to follow the same story. It is meant as an alternate world, where the overall background and story-world is similar, but not all the same things happen. The show is not attempting to recreate the books on a chapter-by-chapter or even story-by-story basis".   It is possible that Butcher didn't give them the rights to major storylines in the overall series.  There are good reasons for the author to do that and they are good reasons for the production company to not want to follow the books all that closely.

 

I think the show is trying to be faithful to the books because of Sanderson's and Harriet's involvement but not all fantasy tvs based may have had the same idea (or the legal ability to do so).

 

 

Edited September 21, 20213 yr by TheDreadReader
Tried to fix weird highlighting from copy and pasting the Butcher quote from wikipedia.

44 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I take this to mean that RJ's unfortunate habit of subjecting his female characters to shame-based punishments like spanking will be erased.

 

except where appropriate. it was a great way to deal with semirhage.

Bad optics aside, I think the idea was that Aes Sedai formally viewed novices and accepted as children, perhaps in a way all other people as children, and so they would be punished like children.

100% and I expect that we will see something of that. But softer and less spanky.

On 9/20/2021 at 5:30 PM, Thrasymachus said:

I've defended casting, I've talked about changes to the plot, which characters could be cut, how to handle the World of Dreams, etc., etc.  My genuine "disillusionment" with this attempt at an adaptation is new enough to not yet have a birthday.  And it's about how very far they are from anything any of us prior fans would recognize as the Wheel of Time without being told it was, based on what we know that has been shown to us by the show runners and reliable sources thus far.

 

Quote

 

Posted Sunday at 12:21 AM (edited)

I fully expect this show to be a dumpster fire.  For the "creative" choices they've made alone, let alone the ways they treated the existing fan base and established prior art, since the main cast release at least, they deserve worse than to join the ranks of adaptations that fans nearly universally agree to pretend don't exist.

 

 

Thrasymachus, just registered (very, very old usernames don't matter ?) to say I'm totally flabbergasted, because never in my life would I think I would have gotten this statement from you. You were such a die-hard defender of the show, and now... You turned 180 degrees...