2 hours ago, FanofKnotai said:

The book didn’t have to explain how because he just used the trefoil leaf. The show definitely needs to show how he got into the ways because the waygate can only be open by the OP in the show. Unless you’re saying maybe PF can channel…?

I've started to think that maybe Padan Fain is merged with Ishamael here, and he is the one who will face Rand & Moirane at the Eye of the World. Was there a casting announced for Ishamael?

Or he is the main bad for the rest of the group remaining in Fal Dara. 

23 hours ago, Therese Sedai said:

I completely missed this. How did she know it was a man? 

Because she couldn't see the weaves. Egwene thought it must have been her, but M must have known. 

 

 

Re Eg/Perrin, some earlier posts made me look at the Perrin/Elyas conversation in the stedding again:-

“Egwene never dragged her feet in her life,” he protested. “She always does her share. I don’t despise her, I love her.” He glared at Elyas, daring him to laugh. “Not like that. I mean, she isn’t like a sister, but she and Rand. . . . Blood and ashes! If the ravens caught us. . . . If. . . . I don’t know.”

I never took it that way, but I do see a strong inference he would have been interested if not for Rand... 

I find it a little puzzling that people are taking two separate yet paralleled examples of characters creating tension by immediately jumping to false conclusions and interpreting them as being changes to the lore/story.

I enjoyed this last episode. 

 

My OH, who hasn't read a word of the books, asked, "So... Is being the Dragon Reborn a good thing?"

 

I thought about it for a moment, then said, "Well, it's a thing."

 

"Right," he said.

 

"He's a politically clueless farmboy who suddenly has to be a world leader, basically, and establish alliances amongst fractious, awkward nation-states in order to defend against more severe threat (haha.. a bit like now). All the while trying not to go too mad because of the taint on saidin. Is that a good thing?"

 

"Probably not," he said.

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by Gypsum

22 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

 

This invitation for show detractors to disentangle their feelings about the show from their relationship to the original books is something that show lovers throw out frequently but largely don't adhere to themselves. 

So I am a show like, but not lover.  I still invite the show detractors to think of the show as something separate from the books.  For me it  is a very workable mechanism to allow me to enjoy the show.  I do think it is interesting  to compare how various moments are handled in both show and book.   I also feel it is a bit unfair to the non-readers because our passion for the books as the superior telling is tending to drown things out here.  

Amen.

22 minutes ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

Some will say that this is fine but that because Nynaeve already had a super powered moment and because the “Tinkers” follow a woman’s leadership and because the Women’s Circle 

appear to govern Emond’s Field, it’s too much. But why? Is it that, on some fundamental level, this series isn’t for women? That it’s for men? Is it that when women touch it—as they are doing here—they degrade it? They make it ridiculous? Or maybe they make it filthy?

 

I’m just saying that it helps to imagine how it feels to be on the receiving end of that assumption. Across cultures and for thousands of years, women have had to contend with the notion that, periodically, they are unclean. I don’t want to feel ridiculous for enjoying this show and the women in it. My favorite storylines actually belong to the men in this series, but this other stuff is interesting to me. 

I think you're missing the point.

The books had the balancing act pretty much well done. The changes were flagrant and unnecessary.

16 minutes ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

In the meantime, let Tigraine do her thing. And let Nynaeve do her thing. It’s okay. There’s so much story to tell.

 Agreed! 

 The Blood Snow scene was the best scene of the show so far IMO. Super cool. That stunt-woman is amazing. The people (seemingly all of them men) who are complaining about a pregnant woman doing that stuff ... silliness. She mother of the Dragon and Aiel. Loved the "show don't tell" here. Would have made the episode even cooler if they applied the same philosophy to Lan's backstory. 

 

There's been a lot that I've been vocal about not liking in the show. But honestly, dudes, watch the Blood Snow scene again & tell me you don't think it's awesome! 

 

And as SnowFlakes says ... They kept Rand as the Dragon, too. 

 

But, honestly ... My complaint is not that have strong women in the show (WoT is full of awesome and strong women) ... My complaint is the writers/show seems to think that - they need to take the men down a notch in order to have strong women ...which they don't. 

 

Lan can still be the most BA stoic swordsman, horseman, and tracker in Randland & Nyn still be just as awesome and fierce and angry and strong. 

 

Rand could have been the Dragon all along without needing Egwene to be a possible Dragon. 

 

Moiraine is heroic and cool and in many ways a better Gandalf than Gandalf in WoT ...without having to have her say, "Men thought they could save the world. The arrogance..." ECT...

 

But. To return to the point. The Tigraine scene was awesome. I hope we get a lot more of that in S2! Maidens of the Spear (hopefully wearing veils) decimating armies of dudes! 

 

 

I wish they'd mentioned that the DR was prophesied to be reborn on Dragonmount. Maybe they will in the next episode, but for all that has been shown the audience, it really makes no difference if the DR be born in the Two Rivers, Tear, or Dragonmount. Rand not being Tam's son seems to have no meaning as to whether he's the DR.

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by Agitel

6 minutes ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

Maybe it’s just me or it’s too soon to tell.

 

I hope so! Because I too think that they've done really well with Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Alanna, Siuan, and Liandrin so far in the show. They are all giving strong performances! 

 

Hoping in S2 that we get more Rand, Perrin, Matt, (a competent Lan) and Fain ... So far they seem like minor characters that are in the way of the "real" heroes and villains.  

 

But maybe that's just my perception...

 

I'd be curious to know in actual lines/screen time what the ratio is this season?

 

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by Wolfbrother31

2 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Unnecessary had he stuck to the books.

Unnecessary because you legitimately think balance in story time and importance between the men and women does exist, or unnecessary, because you think balance between men and women doesn't need to exist? 

 

From the choices they're making, I can already tell that if men and women being more equally important to, and represented in, the TV Series that they are in the books, resulting in the increase in prominence of the women, and a decrease in that of the men bothers you greatly, I doubt you will enjoy the series.

To be honest the 1st book doesn't do the best job of showing a world where women hold the lion's share of the power in the world. Seriously look at who the main leaders are in the 1st book. 

 

- In Eamond's Field you have Bran + village counicl and Nyneave + women's circle, but you barely see any of the second, with Nyneave getting barely any time as a leader in the village. The Village council is far more present

- The mayor of Baerlon is male although he of course never appears

- The ship captain Bayle Domon is male

- The leader of the Tuathan is male

- The leader of the Whitecloaks is male

- The lord of Fal Dara, Agalmar Jagad is male

- The main antagonist Baalzamon/Ishamael is male

 

Literally the only real exemple of female leadership in the 1st book is Morgase. So for a series which stands out for the greater power and agency given to women, it is notably not that present in the 1st book. Obviously later books rebalance it, but It's not suprising that the show wanted to do that earlier especially for minor characters who are unimportant in the long run.

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by MasterAblar

15 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 Moiraine is heroic and cool and in many ways a better Gandalf than Gandalf in WoT ...without having to have her say, "Men thought they could save the world. The arrogance..." ECT...

 

It was in another thread, a video was posted in the Interviews thread I think? And one of the comments under the video pointed out that Moiraine says in her very first lines what you've said there, that men thought they could cage the Dark One, the arrogance etc. And people took that as a "Men are bad, men are bad, men are bad" message.  

 

Yet here we are, at the end of the season, and what is Moiraine doing? The arrogance, indeed. 

 

I thought it was a really great point and it hadn't occurred to me before I read that comment. Maybe, just maybe, there are layers to what we are seeing on the show.

7 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I thought it was a really great point and it hadn't occurred to me before I read that comment. Maybe, just maybe, there are layers to what we are seeing on the show

 

If the show can do what the books took WAY too long to do in a shorter and more subtle way ... Show that the WT/Aes Sedai are themselves fractured, arrogant, part of the problem, a mixed bag of heroes & villains, power & weakness, wisdom & foolishness. That'd be great. 

 

I never really got that from Moiraine in the books though. I got that from Elaida, Galena, Liandrin, Alviarian, Cadsuane, Verin, Sheriam, Siuan, Leane, and a million others that I've forgotten and don't care to even try to remember (they were mostly part of "the slog"). 

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by Wolfbrother31
I remembered two more

I find it hilarious that people are still harping on the show pulling men down especially when they use the Lan is a poor horseman quote.

 

Have none of you ever had friends that like to tease? You could be amazing at something but the one time you fail at that thing, especially in front of your friends, they won't ever let you live it down.  The good nature teasing between friends is the only example of Lan being a poor horseman.  We have 0 evidence of that from the time we have actually seen Lan on a horse. 

31 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I hope so! Because I too think that they've done really well with Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Alanna, Siuan, and Liandrin so far in the show. They are all giving strong performances! 

 

Hoping in S2 that we get more Rand, Perrin, Matt, (a competent Lan) and Fain ... So far they seem like minor characters that are in the way of the "real" heroes and villains.  

 

But maybe that's just my perception...

 

I'd be curious to know in actual lines/screen time what the ratio is this season?

 

 

You can find that on reddit - at least through E6 - but guess it will get updated for 7/8 soon enough - they have breakdowns for screen time per episode.   And I think someone posted on a different thread the word count & talkativity (amount of time talking screen I believe) per character.

 

 

17 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

It was in another thread, a video was posted in the Interviews thread I think? And one of the comments under the video pointed out that Moiraine says in her very first lines what you've said there, that men thought they could cage the Dark One, the arrogance etc. And people took that as a "Men are bad, men are bad, men are bad" message.  

 

Yet here we are, at the end of the season, and what is Moiraine doing? The arrogance, indeed. 

 

I thought it was a really great point and it hadn't occurred to me before I read that comment. Maybe, just maybe, there are layers to what we are seeing on the show.

 

A reaction that I found interesting on twitter yesterday was "How could Agelmar be so antagonistic towards Moiraine".   Compare that to Logain's opening speech in Episode 5 when he is trying to provoke Siuan. "The further you get from this Tower the less power you Aes Sedai have"  (paraphrasing).   Here they go further from the Tower and they are not as happily received as they might expect.

 

I look at some of their early episode choices as them setting up the eventual deconstruction of that idea from Rand's perspective going forward.   Logain + Fal Dara are good examples of that process.  

 

Finally got to watch the episode and quite enjoyed it. A few comments to the nitpicks

• Loial was busy at the library in Fal Dara but he'll get back to you next episode.
• Waygate channeling hate - Fain with the leaf teases that the channeling isn't the only way in. The waygates stick out in the open. The secret leaf key way to enter is rational cause otherwise anyone can enter (without knowing the harm that lies). Everyone was hating on the fact that it required channeling to open - just because we saw it open by channeling the clues are there to show it's not the only way. So hasty to criticize, WAFO what more they have in store
• Moiraine's message to the Red about Mat .. WAFO. Would love for Liandrin to hunt Mat and try (but fail) to gentle him only to find he can't channel *amused*

Loved typical Egwene "waited an hour for you to apologize" because that's so her character. Snarky Min ❤️. Love that we are still getting the essence of the characters. Not sure about Perrin but honestly other than the golden eyes and Travelling People he didn't have a storyline in the first few books. At least not one that stuck out. 

 

Also have come to love Rosamund Pike's acting. Haven't seen anything she's done before but I am loving her portrayal of Moiraine with the little nuances in her facial expressions. I've got a bad feeling about her future in episode 8 though. 

3 hours ago, FanofKnotai said:

   22 hours ago,  dwn said: 

Also, things like "Rand/Mat/Perrin/Lan have been diminished to make the women look good!!!"

I agreed with most of what you said except this. How can you not see the difference in their importance in the show. The women have definitely been thrust to the fore front of all the episodes. And in the books the women were just as awesome as the men and needed no changing. Show me a male badass from the books and I’ll show you his female equal. But it’s not so in the show (admittedly only “so far” we don’t know what the future holds) because again going back to small unnecessary changes like Marin leading the Two Rivers instead of Bran. Was he even the mayor in the show? 

I agree they've given Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine and the Aes Sedai more focus than they had the (early) books--that sort of thing is necessary when you're condensing a story and hiring actors for an ensemble cast. What I don't agree with is that doing so diminishes Rand, Mat, Perrin, Thom or Lan in any way.

 

Rand spends most of TEotW sulking over Tam's fever dream and bumbling his way to Caemlyn--and he does much the same in the show, minus the sulking. Mat is immature and irresponsible then sticks his [hand] in SL funk. Perrin's most "badass" moment is an internal monologue where he resolves to kill Egwene to spare her a painful death by ravens.

 

Let's look at Lan. Is he different in the show? Certainly. They've elevated him to a main character, and in doing so given given him a personality beyond Samurai Batman. What, Nynaeve managed to sneak up on him in a scene shot to make it dramatic and obvious to TV viewers? Oh noes! He hasn't killed as many CG trollocs as he did in the books? Double oh noes!

 

And are you honestly that hung up on who had more speaking lines between Bran and Marin al'Vere? Seriously?

I just re-read the initial scenes with Agelmar.  I wish they would have left that in an almost word for word version. 

8 minutes ago, chri5 said:

I just re-read the initial scenes with Agelmar.  I wish they would have left that in an almost word for word version. 

 

From the books? I like that they didn't. For me, book Agelmar tried too hard to please the Aes Sedai. Has been mentioned already in the thread - this version supports Logain's comment on how the Aes Sedai reach is weaker the farther from Tar Valon they are. Adding the book version personality of Agelmar doesn't add much to the plot IMO, so the change to support the direction they went with Logain (Aes Sedai authority weakening) is one that I'm on board for. 

 

Side note: comments about the imbalance of power displayed in the tv show.. here's a display of a strong male personality and fierceness coming from Agelmar here as the Lord/guardian of the city. Why make the changes? So hasty, WAFO. Also, it's a tv show and it'd be boring to have a show that goes exactly by the books because you'd know everything that is going to happen. Loving the new theories that are coming out with every tv show change. The great thing is you can always go back and read the books if you want the book version storyline. 

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXoJ5YIlNHy/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

Stunt coordinator posted a "previs" of the blood snow fight with original stunt crew. Some stuff was changed/removed in the final scene. Awesome stuff!

 

 

 

This is SICK! Gosh I love this scene so much.

 

I'm so glad they cut the weird/creepy dagger belly rubs though. ?

 

Phenomenal work. I really hope this scene receives some sort of nomination/recognition. Truly beautiful.

1 hour ago, Els said:

• Moiraine's message to the Red about Mat .. WAFO. Would love for Liandrin to hunt Mat and try (but fail) to gentle him only to find he can't channel *amused*

 

It's fun to have the wafo factor around again.  ?

 

18 minutes ago, Els said:

 

From the books? I like that they didn't. For me, book Agelmar tried too hard to please the Aes Sedai. Has been mentioned already in the thread - this version supports Logain's comment on how the Aes Sedai reach is weaker the farther from Tar Valon they are. Adding the book version personality of Agelmar doesn't add much to the plot IMO, so the change to support the direction they went with Logain (Aes Sedai authority weakening) is one that I'm on board for. 

 

Side note: comments about the imbalance of power displayed in the tv show.. here's a display of a strong male personality and fierceness coming from Agelmar here as the Lord/guardian of the city. Why make the changes? So hasty, WAFO. Also, it's a tv show and it'd be boring to have a show that goes exactly by the books because you'd know everything that is going to happen. Loving the new theories that are coming out with every tv show change. The great thing is you can always go back and read the books if you want the book version storyline. 

I am amazed that somebody would take what a person that has two imaginary friends whispering in his ears as spouting show canon.  Logain's speech was just his attempt to stand up to the Aes Sedai and get under their skin.  I liked it  very much but I certainly didn't believe it.  The defenders of the blight border don't have time for games because for them it is always go time.     I get the WAFO bit but the dialog that could have been done around them helping at Tarwin's gap vs gallivanting off chasing TEOTW would be much more powerful.  For me Anglemar's pride lessened him.  Perhaps since he is showing signs of moral weakness they plan to turn him into the dark friend instead of Lord Ingtar.  Pride makes many a dark friend. WAFO indeed

Edited December 18, 20213 yr by Spiritweaver1
Add a WAFO

2 hours ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

I know people aren’t trying to be hurtful and that they feel strongly about this show. But some of what I’ve read in this forum over the last several months has really stung. Here are just a few thoughts about Tigraine, specifically, and the women in the show, generally. I’m not trying to take anything away from men—please, please understand that.

 

Anyway. We suspend disbelief all the time for the fantastical imaginings of men. And it’s great! We do it all the time for Marvel movies and others like them. I’m not denying that there is precedent, of course, for badass women in such films. But their badassery is modeled after the conventional superheroics of men: safeguarding feats of combat that are admirable in both genders but that are first associated with men. That’s okay.

 

But what makes the Tigraine scene meaningful to me—a woman—is that she is being superheroic while doing the most extraordinary “ordinary” thing that a woman can do. Why not let the scene stand as a metaphor related to the strength and fortitude it takes for a person to bring a human being into this world? Why not extend the same willingness to suspend disbelief—in a fantasy narrative, no less—for Tigraine as we have done, time and again, for the men of so many of our beloved (and still beloved) stories? It doesn’t diminish men or their many admirable qualities to do so.

 

I have two children. The experience of labor was bloody and frightening and desperate and exhausting—and though both events were as textbook as any parent could hope them to be—I distinctly remember feeling with the first that I was going to die. It’s embarrassing to remember that, but the pain was beyond comprehension. 

 

The only thing I’ve experienced that is equal to the feat of strength it took to deliver those two is the otherworldly ferocity with which I would defend their bodies if they were in danger. I know my husband feels the same, but I can’t speak to his internal chemistry. All I know is that some biological imperative was triggered in those months of waiting; it doesn’t give women superhuman powers, but it is nevertheless something that is transcendently powerful. Literary fiction explore this idea all the time. Why not explore it here? Why not let a woman in labor manifest epically on screen? 

 

Some will say that this is fine but that because Nynaeve already had a super powered moment and because the “Tinkers” follow a woman’s leadership and because the Women’s Circle 

appear to govern Emond’s Field, it’s too much. But why? Is it that, on some fundamental level, this series isn’t for women? That it’s for men? Is it that when women touch it—as they are doing here—they degrade it? They make it ridiculous? Or maybe they make it filthy?

 

I’m just saying that it helps to imagine how it feels to be on the receiving end of that assumption. Across cultures and for thousands of years, women have had to contend with the notion that, periodically, they are unclean. I don’t want to feel ridiculous for enjoying this show and the women in it. My favorite storylines actually belong to the men in this series, but this other stuff is interesting to me. 

 

Anyway. The Chosen One, even though the title is a potentially tragic one, is a man. The person with the SUPREME power to save or destroy the world is Rand. Many, many women in the series and the show are terrible and cruel. We’ll see more of that and we’ll see more of the men being heroic. In the meantime, let Tigraine do her thing. And let Nynaeve do her thing. It’s okay. There’s so much story to tell.

I'm a woman who has gone through childbirth twice, too. You've explained your opinion and where it comes from really clearly.

 

I just wanted to say that I see the Tigraine scene (I actually think it trivialises labour) and series very differently I don't think this is down to men wanting something different from the show than women do, or it being a gender issue. I think it comes down to personal preference.