Well for me of course not all the writers have to be book readers but i guess, in an adaptation, they should at least have some grasp of the subject.

Regarding The part that i was pointing About LTT being called DR, I know that the scene is awful for many other reasons but i was pointing out that the level is set so low that even a very simple thing to fix (i.e. cutting " reborn " from the subtitles) falls beyond the radar, which for me says a lot about the level of commitment to the source material.

Edited January 2, 20223 yr by fra85uk

Yeah I disagree completely. If you dont read the source material you shouldnt be writing on the show.

17 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Well for me of course not all the writers have to be book readers but i guess, in an adaptation, they should at least have some grasp of the subject.

Regarding The part that i was pointing About LTT being called DR, I know that the scene is awful for many other reasons but i was pointing out that the level is set so low that even a very simple thing to fix (i.e. cutting " reborn " from the subtitles) falls beyond the radar, which for me says a lot about the level of commitment to the source material.

 

Ah I see what you mean. More of a cumulative effect rather than the detail itself? I can understand that. 

 

I think the thing to understand with writers' rooms or screen-writing is that the subject itself, in terms of the details, isn't that important. What I mean there is that the lore and all those things are added details that are important to the story being the Wheel of Time, but a screenwriter won't be approaching it in that way. A screenwriter won't be worried about calling LTT the Dragon Reborn, or about Rand being told to open himself up and let go for channeling (or however it was phrased in episode 8). 

 

If they have not read the books, they will be told: These are our characters. This is who they are (setting etc.) This is what they want, this is what they need. How do those two things clash? And here is the overall story outline: This is where our characters end up. These are the beats we need to hit. How do we achieve that? How can we tell a story that captures this aspect of the world in a condensed episode etc.

 

So in that regard, I honestly do not care if the writers have read the books. 

 

The other aspects are, in my view, the responsibility of people like Rafe and Sarah to ensure that the lore and heart of the WoT story remain in tact. There's outside pressures and all the rest as well.  Like I said, I'm not really defending the writing in the show as it has been great at all (though there were some really great scenes in the middle portion of the season imo). And I absolutely understand frustrations where lore is inaccurate or doesn't make sense, I just don't think the writers need to have read the books to have these things done well. 

7 minutes ago, flinn said:

Yeah I disagree completely. If you dont read the source material you shouldnt be writing on the show.

 

Honestly, you will exclude 99% of screenwriters with that requirement. Where do you draw the line in terms of who should be involved? Do actors, editors, directors, prop makers, all need to have read the source material? It's a completely unreasonable expectation for a production. 

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Honestly, you will exclude 99% of screenwriters with that requirement. Where do you draw the line in terms of who should be involved? Do actors, editors, directors, prop makers, all need to have read the source material? It's a completely unreasonable expectation for a production. 

Huge different in actors reading their lines and the scene descrip and the people who actually write those lines and describe the scenes. So yes, I think if the job came with "it is required to read Eye of the World to apply for this job... there would have been plenty of writers busy reading in order to apply.

 

 If you would like, I can take a picture of some of the manuals and text books that I not only have to read, but learn for certifications for my job.

Edited January 2, 20223 yr by flinn

I think probably there is a misunderstanding: i am not saying that a prerequisite for being hired as writer is to Have read the books. I say that, if you are hired as a writer and you are tasked to write some episodes, You at least do your homework which involves dealing somehow with the source material.

 

Furthermore, This show totally appears to lack quality-control to the point that you have  sentences contradicting what happens the next second (eg don't touch anything---> touching everything) 

2 minutes ago, flinn said:

Huge different in actors reading their lines and the scene descrip and the people who actually write those lines and describe the scenes. So yes, I think if the job came with "it is required to read Eye of the World to apply for this job... there would have been plenty of writers busy reading in order to apply.

 

 If you would like, I can take a picture of some of the manuals and text books that I not only have to read, but learn for certifications for my job.

 

Writers are below the likes of a director in terms of hierarchy for what we see on screen. They provide the scripts, yes, but a director will happily go in and tell an actor to do XYZ that a writer never intended to be done in-scene. I'd actually say you'd probably prefer the directors to be dedicated WoT fans, to be honest.

 

Give me a top quality screen writer who understands how to write scripts, any prior knowledge of the source material is a bonus. 

 

Let me be clear, I am not saying that they should disregard source material. They will have been given the outlines. That is enough to write a good script. Expecting every writer in the room to read the Eye of the World just means you'll get the same things pitched with no diversity of thought. 

 

And no, I fully understand that different jobs require different qualifications, but thanks for the patronising comment. 

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I think probably there is a misunderstanding: i am not saying that a prerequisite for being hired as writer is to Have read the books. I say that, if you are hired as a writer and you are tasked to write some episodes, You at least do your homework which involves dealing somehow with the source material.

 

Furthermore, This show totally appears to lack quality-control to the point that you have  sentences contradicting what happens the next second (eg don't touch anything---> touching everything) 

 

 

I agree with that, the writing has not been good. Like I said, some scenes have been great, but so often they've been surrounded by awful ones. In terms of homework, that will be the outlines provided for where the series is going and who the characters are. Some writers haven't read the books means exactly what it says, it doesn't mean they are completely unfamiliar with the source material or disregarding it completely. 

 

 

The show is terrible.  At this point, my only hope is that someone else (Netflix, HBO, anyone) recognizes how much potential has been wasted and tries a remake in a few years.

 

Clearly they made executive decisions to change things that matter.  I'd love to know why but I'm sure that will never happen. 

 

This show fails on almost every level to tell the story of EoTW and setup for all that is WoT.  I could spend all day listing the numerous faults, failures, and errors and someone else could spend all day trying to justify them.  The bottom line is that through 8 episodes, I do not care about any of the characters.  Robert Jordan's WoT was always about the characters.  You loved them, you hated them, you cheered their victories, and you mourned their losses.  Through season 1 of WoT on Prime, I literally do not care if any of them succeed or fail.

 

-Rand is an empty character who's singular positive trait took to the 8th episodes to come out when he does "the right" thing by fighting for Egwene's/other's free will.

-Perrin is a sad sack of nothing whose entire character is based on a fabricated mistake he makes in episode 1 and results in his inaction for 7 more episodes.  Some people might argue that the fabricated wife story was meant to replace the wolves v. white cloak scene, but if you think accidentally killing your wife equates to accidentally killing whitecloacks while defending the lives of your "friends", then we will just have to agree to disagree.  These are two completely different motivations and would cause completely different mental/emotional struggles.

-Matt may as well end up being the BBEG.  Again the only positive trait is a fabrication from episode 1 that made you feel bad for him.  Did the writers realize that they made a negative character who would then become even more negative due to a known plot devise (dagger)??  What are you supposed to like about that character?

-Egwene is the only character you have feelings for because she has desires outside of:  "I want to go home"... wait didn't they age these characters up?

-Nynaeve is annoying... ok, they got that one right.  Unfortunately they then accelerated one of her major motivations by about 3123adf235 pages.

-Moiraine loses all opportunity to earn the groups trust.  Moiraine she is driven and that can come across as heartless, but RJ gave us scene after scene of Moiraine saving the day and earning the other's trust.  Prime steals away all of those scenes. Sure they show her fighting the trollocs in the two rivers, but then they make barely any note about her healing the survivors, Tam chief among them.  They destroyed her speech to the Two Rivers.  She doesn't save Perrin and Egwene from the Whitecloaks.  She heals Matt, but that scene turns more into judgement than any sort of endearing quality.  They even take away the respect she has in the borderlands.  At the end of the day, you're left with zero reason that any of them should listen to or follow Moiraine anywhere.  This blind idea that "we're saving the two rivers" falls flat when the person you're following has done almost nothing to have earned your trust.

-Lan is fine, but they stripped away all father figure/mentor qualities he has with "the boys", which again leaves you empty of feeling for him.

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Do you really think it's a good idea to have every writer in the room to be book readers? There'd be zero diversity of thought when creating the adaptation.

 

I'm scared to death by "writers" who do not read books ?

 

And of course in that particular case they may not read the books BEFORE they were hired - but if they didn't read it after it explains a lot about the show.

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

That is enough to write a good script. Expecting every writer in the room to read the Eye of the World just means you'll get the same things pitched with no diversity of thought.

 

Apparently - it is not. Those people for example do not understand the magic system and they just throw around spells from any other fantasy book they happen to read, whatever they see fit.

1 hour ago, Testeria said:

 

I'm scared to death by "writers" who do not read books ?

 

And of course in that particular case they may not read the books BEFORE they were hired - but if they didn't read it after it explains a lot about the show.

It’s just a paycheque to them.

I don't hate the show. I'll go further. At this point I kind of like it. I just finished the first 15 chapters of TEotW, and will be basing my post on what I read there.

 

First, not everything is included. Of course some things were excluded because they just would not work very well on screen. For example, having Nynaeve walk around with her discipline stick thwacking adult men whom she sees misbehaving, while it works fine in the book, would just alienate a lot of viewers. Well anyway virtually nothing of how Emond's Field is governed is in the show. That's the other thing,not much time in a one-hour premiere to show a lot of those details and at the same time get the story started. So those kinds of things are legitimate changes more or less.

 

Something else I'm perfectly ok with is the casting of dark-skinned actors to play Egwene and Nynaeve. This is in agreement with the book, where, I believe in Chapter 4, both women are explicitly described as dark-skinned. this would also make sense in a location like the books' Two Rivers, where almost everyone is described as dark-haired and brown-eyed (in contrast with Rand's red hair and light eyes). Places in our world, such as southern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East feature people with dark hair and brown eyes, and a fair number of such people have fairly dark skin. So for me also, the casting of Perrin is perfectly ok.

 

Nynaeve as a highly-skilled tracker is perfectly ok. In TEotW, she tells the other Emond's Fielders that the only tracker in the Two Rivers who is better is Tam al'Thor. And even though Lan hid the party's tracks really well, she has no trouble tracking them  all the way from the Two Rivers to Baerleon.so this is following the books.

 

One specific change I did not particularly care for was with Tom Merrilin. In TEotW he is introduced as a spry old fellow, a high-end professional gleeman, and a multi-faceted entertainer. He also is show as a guy who gets by more with brains than brawn. In the show he has been transformed into a standard garden-variety badass, who is grudging and only semi-good singer, analogous to many a second-rate 20th century folksinger. And the guy is no fun at all, unlike the Tom in the books. so I did not enjoy this change one bit.

 

But they did get Loial right. They even made him youthfully indiscreet. "You're an Aielman!" "You're Rand al'Thor!

 

Finally Nynaeve's mass heal under great stress has book precedent When Moiraine tells the Emond's Fielders who have gathered as alynch mob to at least run her out of town. She tells them the story of Manetheren. The end of the story is something the show left out that the show should have left in. At the end of the story, the queen of Manetheren is alone in the evacuated city, with the city's army slaughtered, including her husband the King. She is beyond angry and wants revenge. She calls on the One Power and uses it to wipe out the enemy army composed of trollocs and corrupted humans. Since she called on too much of the One Power, she dies in the process. So leaving this bit in could have properly foreshadowed both Nynaeve's mass heal, and the stand of the female channelers against the trolloc army at Tarwin's Gap. Maybe the writers were going for surprise over story,the chronic failing of TV writers working on this kind of series.

 

Will I continue to watch? Yes. Will the series be as good as the books? Probably not. But we will get visuals of some things that might be good enough to become head canon.

Well I was going to binge the whole series and I decided to just do E7 and E8.  Why should I waste any more time on this series when I could be and will be reading Winters Heart .  After calming down and feeding all my frustrations and anger into a flame I have come up with the following score.  I like the way others have done it so mine are:  Non-book reader 5/10 and book lover 3/10.   Both would have  been a bit higher but E8 was so bad that recency bias took over and it all smells like a dead grunter to me.  My sister read TEOTW a couple of years ago and stopped.  She and one of her male friends watched the whole series and gave it a "meh" rating.  She said they will possibly watch it again next season if there isn't anything better on.   There have been a lot of very articulate posts on here so I will just point out a few things.

 

This is clearly a based on rather than an adaption.  A good seasonal example is Scrooged. It is a based on rather than an adaption of the source material A Christmas Carol.   There are three ghosts and a spiritual breakthrough but other than that nothing is the same.  WoT show is less clear cut but in my opinion we are off the interstate and on the 4WD road without a map.  The path will only get rougher ahead.

 

Being in 4WD territory without a map leads to one of the biggest problems, as I have been predicting which is poor writing results.  I don't want to reprise the earlier discussions in this thread but writer's cannot do a good adaptation without  being familiar with the source material.  You can do a based on without it and clearly that is what is happening.  The problem with the WoT writers is that they are trying to build a world that is fantastically rich, well thought out, and clearly based on the authors experience.  The show team is trying to "adapt" a very complex story without understanding it or even caring much based on some recent discussions I have read with Rafe who I name the Destroyer of Hope (for a decent show).  

 

So then we go into the essence of what Rafe and several PR flacks for Amazon, tout as a big improvement in the story.  We take a 4 way duality, good and evil and male and female and collapse it into good and evil.  Every single fantasy story has that.  In addition, thus far, the male characters are next to useless if not completely useless.  The heart of this story, for me, was about balance in these four opposites.  In AMOL Rand gets to see what happens if he destroys the DO.  The whole point is that we have to learn and grow and work together to get to some balance.  I shudder to think how the male taint will get cleansed in Rafeland.  

 

A couple of posters have compared this series to David Lynch's Dune.   I think it is pretty apt.   I too wait for the wheel to spin out a show runner who actually wants to adapt RJ's story.  Some one with the caliber of Peter Jackson.  The Destroyer of Hope is clearly stuck in his ego and so I don't see this show getting to the target number of seasons because of it.  Yet no one can walk so long in the dark that they cannot come to the light.   I will likely start season 2 because I am retired and when my little hobby farm shuts down for the season I have time to waste.  I have severe doubts that I will finish it unless season 2 can get my non book score up to at least 7.  I believe there is no hope for the book lover score.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Honestly, you will exclude 99% of screenwriters with that requirement.

I don't really think that particular argument holds water. Sure maybe 99% of screenwriters haven't read the books YET, but I think after they are brought on board it's not at all unreasonable to expect them to then read the source material. If I were running the show, I'd require it, but what do I know. I would think the showrunners would hire the best writers they could (period). Regardless of what they have or haven't read. But once working on a show that is supposed to be an adaptation, it sure makes a lot of sense to me that as a writer adapting that material you should at least read the source material. I imagine there is a difference between "lead" writers and those that are just working on fleshing out story boards or whatever, and maybe you could get by with only the leads reading the source material... I'd venture to say an adaptation like this one is what you get when your lead writers haven't read the source material. It shows.

The world is broken.

Many, many years ago men who were born with great power believed they could cage darkness itself. The arrogance.

When they failed, the seas boiled, mountains were swallowed up, cities burned, and the women of the Aes Sedai were left to pick up the pieces.

These women remembered one thing above else…the man who brought the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Now this man has been born again. We don’t know where or to whom. If he was reborn as a girl or a boy. The only thing we know for certain is that this child is coming of age now, and we must find them…before the Dark does.

Ignoring the rest of the BS, another blatant example of how poor is the quality-control in this show comes from the first lines of ep1…apparently LTT was named Dragon after the Breaking of the World by the women Aes Sedai. This is another contradiction of the lore...but then Latra calls LTT the Dragon Reborn.

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

The world is broken.

Many, many years ago men who were born with great power believed they could cage darkness itself. The arrogance.

When they failed, the seas boiled, mountains were swallowed up, cities burned, and the women of the Aes Sedai were left to pick up the pieces.

These women remembered one thing above else…the man who brought the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Now this man has been born again. We don’t know where or to whom. If he was reborn as a girl or a boy. The only thing we know for certain is that this child is coming of age now, and we must find them…before the Dark does.

Ignoring the rest of the BS, another blatant example of how poor is the quality-control in this show comes from the first lines of ep1…apparently LTT was named Dragon after the Breaking of the World by the women Aes Sedai. This is another contradiction of the lore...but then Latra calls LTT the Dragon Reborn.

Perhaps the Aes Sedai had an agenda hence why they did so.

3 hours ago, fra85uk said:

The world is broken.

Many, many years ago men who were born with great power believed they could cage darkness itself. The arrogance.

When they failed, the seas boiled, mountains were swallowed up, cities burned, and the women of the Aes Sedai were left to pick up the pieces.

These women remembered one thing above else…the man who brought the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

Now this man has been born again. We don’t know where or to whom. If he was reborn as a girl or a boy. The only thing we know for certain is that this child is coming of age now, and we must find them…before the Dark does.

Ignoring the rest of the BS, another blatant example of how poor is the quality-control in this show comes from the first lines of ep1…apparently LTT was named Dragon after the Breaking of the World by the women Aes Sedai. This is another contradiction of the lore...but then Latra calls LTT the Dragon Reborn.

In the Prologue:-

 

“So you do remember some things. Yes, Betrayer of Hope. So have men named me, just as they named you Dragon, but unlike you I embrace the name. They gave me the name to revile me, but I will yet make them kneel and worship it. What will you do with your name? After this day, men will call you Kinslayer. What will you do with that?”

8 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

I don't really think that particular argument holds water. Sure maybe 99% of screenwriters haven't read the books YET, but I think after they are brought on board it's not at all unreasonable to expect them to then read the source material. If I were running the show, I'd require it, but what do I know. I would think the showrunners would hire the best writers they could (period). Regardless of what they have or haven't read. But once working on a show that is supposed to be an adaptation, it sure makes a lot of sense to me that as a writer adapting that material you should at least read the source material. I imagine there is a difference between "lead" writers and those that are just working on fleshing out story boards or whatever, and maybe you could get by with only the leads reading the source material... I'd venture to say an adaptation like this one is what you get when your lead writers haven't read the source material. It shows.

 

That's the key point here, everything else is just noise. All I am saying is that the writers not reading the book is not the gotcha that some seem to think it is. Of course they may take something extra from having read the book, ideas for scenes, characters etc., but the writing problems with the show are nothing to do with writer knowledge of the source material. Critics also say that Rafe is ruining the entire project, but he knows and loves the books. Surely by this logic, someone as well versed in the books as Rafe should have written the best episodes? 

 

I would be absolutely shocked if Dave Hill (writer of episode 4, my personal favourite episode) has read the books for example. 

 

Again, I am not defending the writing in the show overall. The writing is downright bad at times. But I don't think reading the books has anything to do with that. 

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

In the Prologue:-

 

“So you do remember some things. Yes, Betrayer of Hope. So have men named me, just as they named you Dragon, but unlike you I embrace the name. They gave me the name to revile me, but I will yet make them kneel and worship it. What will you do with your name? After this day, men will call you Kinslayer. What will you do with that?”

I genuinely don't understand the connection between this and what i said About the show.

Dragon should be originally an honourific (in fact LTT had also a banner of the Dragon, something you do not imagine for a negative nickname) but the first ten lines of the show says that Dragon is what LTT was named after going nuke-crazy.

But again LTT is called Dragon Reborn in ep8.

 

So i will conclude that before going mad he was named Dragon reborn but AFTER Dying they just left Dragon because Dead Dragon was redundant. Case closed. 

12 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I genuinely don't understand the connection between this and what i said About the show.

Dragon should be originally an honourific (in fact LTT had also a banner of the Dragon, something you do not imagine for a negative nickname) but the first ten lines of the show says that Dragon is what LTT was named after going nuke-crazy.

But again LTT is called Dragon Reborn in ep8.

 

So i will conclude that before going mad he was named Dragon reborn but AFTER Dying they just left Dragon because Dead Dragon was redundant. Case closed. 

 

"And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World.

And him they named Dragon."
   — From Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora, The Breaking of the World. Author unknown, the Fourth Age

From the books it make sense that the name Dragon was the only thing left of the memory of LTT but still don't explain him called DR reborn in the ep8 and Dragon at the beginning.

 

Furthermore the phrases in the show  changes completely the background by adding the arrogant men part to what you posted. 

15 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

From the books it make sense that the name Dragon was the only thing left of the memory of LTT but still don't explain him called DR reborn in the ep8 and Dragon at the beginning.

 

Furthermore the phrases in the show  changes completely the background by adding the arrogant men part to what you posted. 

 

Would it matter if they called LTT the Phoenix?  

2 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Would it matter if they called LTT the Phoenix?  

No but at least call him always Phoenix: there seems to be no double-check of stuff in this show, everything feels so sloppy and not carefully crafted.

Hmf...how about Lews Therin Lite?