I know it is difficult for a show to remain completely true to a book series, especially as intricate of one as TWOT, but I don’t feel like the show even tried. Like they used the book as a vague reference point for the show instead of the show being a true adaptation of the book. 

I don't recall the explanation as to why male channelers go insane. Since the idea of a gender-oriented One Power seems to have been tossed...the idea that a man goes mad because he has a penis seems kinda...flaccid to me.

23 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

I don't recall the explanation as to why male channelers go insane. Since the idea of a gender-oriented One Power seems to have been tossed...the idea that a man goes mad because he has a penis seems kinda...flaccid to me.

Because masculinity is so toxic that poisons the one power? ?

3 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

I don't recall the explanation as to why male channelers go insane. Since the idea of a gender-oriented One Power seems to have been tossed...the idea that a man goes mad because he has a penis seems kinda...flaccid to me.

Don't think it was tossed, though they've yet to explain it yet. If you listen to LTT and Latra talking to each other instead of reading the translation, LTT clearly says either "saidar" or "saidin." I can't remember at this point which it was, but it stood out brightly when I heard it, which I actually didn't at first. I only noticed it when my wife was rewatching the episode.

 

Of course, she also predicts that the power will be tainted if you touch the Dark One with it, which is why she doesn't want to bring any women. Since we know that actually happened, the only sensible explanation is men and women aren't touching the same thing when they weave. And we know the men of the Age of Legends didn't go mad in spite of having penises, so that isn't the reason.

17 hours ago, fitzwell said:

Not all book readers hate this show but I'm guessing those that have read this series multiple read throughs are probably more apt to dislike the show.  It is hard to have read this series more than a dozen times and not have every detail that is off not drive you crazy.   See Aiel above.

I wouldn't be surprise if what you say is true for something on the order of 90 percent of people who have read the books more than once. For me, though, my second trip through TEotW has shown me the show-runners were more faithful to Jordan's vision than I had thought (at least so far). If anything changes based on the second half of the book, I will be more than happy to 'fess up at that time.

 

Part of the problem with someone who hast developed an extensive, intensive and detailed head canon is that based on the difference in media (page v. film) there are things that work on the page and don't work on screen. There also are things that have to be left out to fit 14 long books into 64 one-hour TV episodes. No matter what choices the show-runners and writers make with these sorts of mandatory changes, a lot of people who find their head canon violated aren't going to care for them.

 

Would I make different choices on these matters than what Rafe and the gang made? Sure! But a lot of people wouldn't like my choices, either. And I think that's true of any one of us who might have made different choices.No matter which one of us whose choices showed up on-screen, others of us would disagree.

 

But then there are pieces where the show was true to the books, and a number of people objected strongly. People objected to the fact that dark-skinned actors were cast as Nynaeve, Egwene and Perrin. The first book states very early on that Nynaeve and Egwene are dark-skinned. It also says Two Rivers folks almost to a one are dark-haired and brown-eyed. In such societies in our world, such as in southern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East, a sizable fraction of people are dark-skinned.

 

Many people have objected to the fact that the female characters in the show don't think especially highly of their male counterparts, and that women appear to be predominant in the show's world. But that feature was baked into Jordan's work from the very start, what with Wisdom Nynaeve walking around with her discipline stick, and thwacking any child or man whom she believes needs thwacking.

 

There are some choices that were less necessary that the show-runners made that I don't like at all, such as their re-do on Thom Merrilin, who remains one of my favorite characters from the books. Another thing, I didn't care for Fal Dara being out in the middle of a bare desert, and then we see crowds of people bringing produce and other goods into town. From where? And then where are the crowds fleeing to during the attack? I'm not sure there's anywhere for them to go.

 

I agree with those who consider Episodes 1 and 8 hot messes. I am concerned by the constant use by the writers of TV tropes (suspense over story, surprise over story, plot over story)  that weaken their story-telling.

 

There are seven seasons to go. Rafe and crew have plenty of opportunities to mess things up. I'm a veteran of Game of Thrones. That show started with a very strong first season, began to have problems in the second season and was completely off the rails by the fifth season. Many people consider the final battle and ending to have been a big disappointment. (Of course those guys were hamstrung quite a bit by the fact Martin had not yet, and likely never will, finish the series of books, an excuse Rafe and company don't have.)

 

So, fingers crossed. Good luck to us all!

30 minutes ago, AdamA said:

And we know the men of the Age of Legends didn't go mad in spite of having penises, so that isn't the reason.

We know the wheel turns and what was will be again... 

 

Imagine men of the AOL were penisless and the counterstroke was the Dark One giving men a twinklepole.

 

Come to our age, this is why men have the mark of the Dark One. 

 

And the current climate of de-penising men explains how the AOL were 'pure' and poleless. 

 

???

18 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Critical thinking is great. There's a difference between having a critical discussion of works of art and:

•  berating the creators (you can dislike the work or aspects of it without personal attacks or low blows)
•  calling others in the forum shills for Amazon for expressing their enjoyment of the show
•  repeatedly pushing ideas of "agendas" or gender-bias tainting the show process (that's fine if that's your opinion, but others can feel how they want to as well)
•  reviving dead arguments that have already been discussed repeatedly (disagreements that ultimately have no final judgement anyway, like the point above)
•  insisting there is only one way to interpret the show/story/acting/character arcs/etc.
•  makings arguments that amount to "this show is doomed" without any additional critique
•  Making comments like "90% of book readers hate the show" (I love the show and the books and think there is a synergy between the two and I don't like being used as a pawn in arguments like this)
•  Acting like the television show will ruin the legacy of RJs great epic. It won't.
• etc. etc. etc.
• (and some of these points might bother some more than others)

 

I don't want to dissuade others from participating in any discussion, but I also don't think we need to tolerate dead end comments that provide no sustenance for the conversation and sometimes can be downright insulting. I've even created another thread to discuss the show with the explicit request to avoid behavior like I outlined above because it's such a rampant problem right now.

 

Surely we are not alone in feeling this way?

You are taking this way beyond the original discussion. 

 

I was only responding to this statement and this alone.
 

“So basically a buncha y'all don't have the right kinds of brains and imagination to have fun with this and you're mad at the happy people about it. Heckin ridiculous.”

 

That poster clearly stated that those who didn’t agree with her did not “have the right kinds of brains…”

 

Please don’t meander off in other directions, distant from the original response. It’s not helpful.

 

I will say nothing further on this. I’ve made my point that insults don’t add to productive discussion. 

 

 

Well it is clear to me that the wheel has turned several times on this thread.  There is very little new in the way of discussion.  Thats why we seem to be arguing about motivations/intentions which, in my experience, are very difficult to suss out from posts/emails/texts etc.   For example I have called Rafe Destroyer of Hope, because for me, that is what he has done.  I had hopes for a LOTR movie level adaptation and that is not what I got.  I have posted in several thread the reasons I am disappointed and i see no reason to justify my position again as it is just boringly repetitive.  I did come up with a new example which i am sure some would appreciate.  However, I don't actually have any proof so I am not going to write it.

 

Whether or not he is in over his head or Amazon suits have a dastardly plot to sell a bunch of books so they stirred the pot big time and ruined it for the book cloaks  is something that only time will tell.  

 

I will just say that I have a lot of winters under my kilt and, in my experience, Hollywood manages to "ruin" most so called adaptations for fans of the books. I can't really speak for others but for myself this has been true.   

19 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

 

 

No, the people I combined to make the above example do not have the right brains or imaginations for the convos that I'd rather have. I would rather think creatively about it and they just want to insist that it's bad. 

 

 

 

I think you have to accept there are a LOT of people who feel hurt/angry/let down by the show and are lashing out. I was pretty angry in the beginning and it took me a while to piece together why I was so het up about a TV show.

 

For a lot of people these characters aren't just someone in a book, they are people who have 'lived' in their head.  -That's clumsy phrasing, I know.  By virtue of the written medium, we often know a fictional character better than the real life people around us.  My favourite character in literature -not just in the series was 'done dirty' by the show and yes, I'm pretty damn disappointed that what was billed as an adaptation that I waited excitedly for years turned out to be rather more loosely attached to the source material than I would have liked.

 

Add to that, there are a lot of people for whom the series has been a lifeline in dark times.  They have seen favourite characters go through stuff and survive and latched on to that or the books have been a necessary escape from an otherwise difficult time.  Sentiments like 'well, you still have the books' are as insensitive as -don't worry you can go get another puppy to replace your beloved dog of 15 years.

 

We all have brains, we may not all be having the conversation that some want to have but let's stop saying if an opinion is different to our own that person is somewhat lacking.  

13 minutes ago, rowdie said:

Start over.....Fire Rafe!

Sorry, but that petition will not change anything. It will give people a few laughs for sure. Petitions should be written with an objective mindset. Not with whatever that was. Full of fabricated "facts" that do not even exist in the show and just basic whining that has no weight to it.

On 1/8/2022 at 9:31 PM, fitzwell said:

 

• I would love to see a screen time count. 

 

I have posted the screen time count a few times, you'll likely be able to find them in Ep 6, 7 & 8 threads, and they are on Reddit.   If you are unable to find it I'll be happy to repost it - just do not want to repeat the same stuff on multiple threads.  

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Sorry, but that petition will not change anything. It will give people a few laughs for sure. Petitions should be written with an objective mindset. Not with whatever that was. Full of fabricated "facts" that do not even exist in the show and just basic whining that has no weight to it.

 

It will certainly be interesting to see if they get to the same # of signatures as the GOT petition (1.85m).  Interestingly enough that was less than 10% of the people who viewed the finale (when it premiered).   

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

I have posted the screen time count a few times, you'll likely be able to find them in Ep 6, 7 & 8 threads, and they are on Reddit.   If you are unable to find it I'll be happy to repost it - just do not want to repeat the same stuff on multiple threads.  

 

I found a different person doing a different approach.   Anyways according to the data that they have collected, Men have been on the screen more than women in every single episode of S1 except Ep6.

 

Here is the overall total for the season:

 

In-Scene

Voice

Asleep

USC

Dead

Total

11:50:03

1:19

8:06

6:24

6:54

12:14:32

 Male

10:15:27

2:14

4:19

22:29

11:52

10:56:21

Female

 

If that seems confusing - thats because that is the time combined.   If say Perrin and Mat are each on screen for 5min in the same scene in an episode, then that counts as 10min - 5 per each character.    So that is the total combined screen time of over 50 characters from main characters through to Tom Thane.   

 

For those interested you can review the data per episode here:

 

https://rationalnerd62.tumblr.com/post/671828424700116992/wheel-of-time-screentime-s1e8

Edited January 10, 20223 yr by ArrylT
clarification

On 1/6/2022 at 2:32 AM, Raal Gurniss said:

Well we shall see the next several years.

 

If it produces say 8 seasons complete with highly sought after merchandise then I shall be forced to admit that indeed it is the fantastic show that many are making it out to be.

 
I certainly won’t be wearing one of those Aes Sedai rings. ?

 

I do wear one of the old ones. 

6 hours ago, Ryrin said:

 
I certainly won’t be wearing one of those Aes Sedai rings. ?

 

I do wear one of the old ones. 

 

I'm absolutely gutted they stopped Badali from selling the original rings, I have a silver one but would have loved a proper gold one.

 

Another of the casualties of this production is the original official merchandise and artwork that got stopped from production.  I managed to get myself a couple of the Tar Valon marks and some prints before the deadline.

 

They definitely missed a trick cutting the shawls, if they had been included and done well I can see they would have sold well.

I wrote this for another forum, nearly posting it in it's "WoT TV Series" thread, populated with maybe 40% book readers.  Inspired by just finishing the absolutely beautiful and powerful chapter, "A Making" in Book 13, I figured I'd drop it here anyway (Books 12-14 get me in tears *entirely* too damn often, still...)

 

So, I highly highly recommend the book series.  It's long, very long, with the *best* highs and, I must concede, some pretty drawn out medium-low's also.  I'm not on board with condemning the known bad parts, as I actually enjoy most of them, but I understand it can get long.

 

I always re-listen with audible for this series' audiobooks are just fantastic.  Two of the best readers out there, among about the top 5 for sure.  I must also admit having listened to them so many times for so many years, the TV series voices just didn't match the audio books and it felt "wrong" for me.  My own issue, I know.

 

Anyway, I get back here because I finished up book 11 a bit before the TV series started, then 12 during the series and now about 3/4 through book 13.  While the series begins with a bang for the first 3-5 books, the last 4, especially the last 3, are in a league of their own.  Every time it's worth the wait to re-listen to get to my favorite parts in the last 3 books.

 

On 1/10/2022 at 5:15 AM, ArrylT said:

 

It will certainly be interesting to see if they get to the same # of signatures as the GOT petition (1.85m).  Interestingly enough that was less than 10% of the people who viewed the finale (when it premiered).   

I doubt it will for a number of reasons. 

The vast majority of WOT viewers are not book readers so have none of the concerns or anger that some book readers have. 

As is always the case on the internet those who are vocal about disliking the series are a vocal minority. Most book readers are not even on Dragonmount and really I imagine don't care enough to come online and announce how they feel about the series. If someone dislikes it and is not coming online to post they are unlikely to be coming online to sign a petition 

Finally the GOT petition came out of viewers being disappointed with how many many years of there lives seemed to have been wasted with a poor end to what had started as a great series, it wasn't made up of a relatively few book readers who where upset that the story had not been told the way they envisaged. 

People have a right to be upset with the adaptation, to vent and moan about things they like or don't like but I think a sense of perspective has to be taken, those of us who come online to moan or to praise are a minority and i the grand scheme of things we say won't influence the show makers one way or another. Amazon has said WOT is hitting record breaking numbers, that is the only metric that matters and those that dislike the series I think need a sense of perspective, if it is commercially succesful then like it or not it is inherently a successful adaptation that will draw more people to reading the books. 

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I doubt it will for a number of reasons. 

The vast majority of WOT viewers are not book readers so have none of the concerns or anger that some book readers have. 

As is always the case on the internet those who are vocal about disliking the series are a vocal minority. Most book readers are not even on Dragonmount and really I imagine don't care enough to come online and announce how they feel about the series. If someone dislikes it and is not coming online to post they are unlikely to be coming online to sign a petition 

Finally the GOT petition came out of viewers being disappointed with how many many years of there lives seemed to have been wasted with a poor end to what had started as a great series, it wasn't made up of a relatively few book readers who where upset that the story had not been told the way they envisaged. 

People have a right to be upset with the adaptation, to vent and moan about things they like or don't like but I think a sense of perspective has to be taken, those of us who come online to moan or to praise are a minority and i the grand scheme of things we say won't influence the show makers one way or another. Amazon has said WOT is hitting record breaking numbers, that is the only metric that matters and those that dislike the series I think need a sense of perspective, if it is commercially succesful then like it or not it is inherently a successful adaptation that will draw more people to reading the books. 

…Amazon saying it’s the best should result in them signing up for 10 seasons immediately, lets see if they do!

9 hours ago, Ryrin said:

 
I certainly won’t be wearing one of those Aes Sedai rings. ?

 

I do wear one of the old ones. 

FUGLY!! ?

44 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

…Amazon saying it’s the best should result in them signing up for 10 seasons immediately, lets see if they do!

They have set a show schedule of 8 seasons, they have made a decision, using metrics and stats that 8 seasons is the optimum number of seasons for a series, the cast will have signed up to 8 seasons, the logistics of turning this into a 10 season series will be far harder then simply signing a cheque. I think it is more likely they allow slightly longer seasons then add a whole new one. 

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

They have set a show schedule of 8 seasons, they have made a decision, using metrics and stats that 8 seasons is the optimum number of seasons for a series, the cast will have signed up to 8 seasons, the logistics of turning this into a 10 season series will be far harder then simply signing a cheque. I think it is more likely they allow slightly longer seasons then add a whole new one. 

Excellent! Lets see how long it lasts.

On 12/29/2021 at 4:41 PM, Skipp said:

He wasn't shown to be proficient in tEotW either.  But I am also unsure if we will get the scene

In the books it was Rand's training with Lan that made him a good swordsman. And Rand dueled Turak not Suroth but I get your points, I don't see them making Rand's sword work a part of the show sadly

On 1/9/2022 at 11:08 PM, ArrylT said:

I have posted the screen time count a few times, you'll likely be able to find them in Ep 6, 7 & 8 threads, and they are on Reddit. 

It's funny how even though the stats indicate how heavily Rand is shown on the screen that it just doesn't feel that way?  I wonder if that is because of the way they've portrayed his character, they way they filmed his scenes, or maybe that I get disinterested in him when he's worried about Egwene?

 

In the episode where he uses the power to explode out of the storeroom, I was focused on the bartender rather than him.....

6 minutes ago, Deviations said:

It's funny how even though the stats indicate how heavily Rand is shown on the screen that it just doesn't feel that way?  I wonder if that is because of the way they've portrayed his character, they way they filmed his scenes, or maybe that I get disinterested in him when he's worried about Egwene?

 

In the episode where he uses the power to explode out of the storeroom, I was focused on the bartender rather than him.....

 

Right and that is the fun part about objective vs. subjective.   One of the people doing the screen time recording said

 

"Time perception is a highly subjective experience. Emotions, among other things, play a role in how we feel the passing of seconds, minutes, and hours. We can lose track of time, or race against it. It drags when we are bored, or flies when we laugh.

This subjectivity affects how we experience real events but also entertainment. Our favorite characters never get enough screen time, while the ones we barely tolerate always get too much. The credit rolls on a disappointingly slow episode, only to realize many found it too fast, or just as it should be."

 

Objective is Rand has X amount of screen time

Subjective is us choosing to feel more focused on other characters while that character is on the screen.

 

I do think that the show, at least for me, sometimes does not make it very clear whose perspective we're supposed to be witnessing.   So I certainly would not disagree that for that scene, Dana was likely the intended focal character*.  Personally I was more focused on Rand, but that is because he is a favorite character of mine both book & show.    I usually find it is easier when reading to notice a POV change than when watching a movie or tv series, unless the scene itself changes.   

 

* - evidence (for me) being that we did not see any weaves in Ep4 only when Rand flashed back in Ep7.  

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Amazon has said WOT is hitting record breaking numbers, that is the only metric that matters

And of course they'd say differently if weren't the case...

I'd say a bit of skepticism is in order.