24 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Man if Tam does end up stabbing Rand's mother I will be on the forum in seconds to read the comments.  That will be some fun reading.  I still hope the third one running up is Tam, but he comes just a bit late after she is struck down and they don't actually have him harm Rand's mom.  But if they do go the way of Perin and his wife, the forum is going to be fun.

I fully expect he will be the one to kill her.  They want a water cooler moment that gets everyone talking, like the Red Wedding scene in GoT.

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

And doesn't look older than Josha. No problem at all. Just imagine how many "teens" in movies/tv are actually 25+ years old 

 

Yeah ages of actors/characters is just an area where you have to suspend disbelief.

Ok so I am super excited to see this fight scene. 

 

Guess I really do have to see SOMEONE stab a pregnant lady which is going to be FRACKING INTENSE and I don't like it. 

 

But that is the scene. 

 

We really think that is Tam running to protect his comrades? We just can't have the most noble, best human in the books kill an expectant mother. It's just too horrific. 

Pregnant women in this show are gonna be 2 from 2 at the end of this episode, possibly both at the hands of good men.

Rafe of Time indeed ?

1 hour ago, TheSmurf said:

Pregnant women in this show are gonna be 2 from 2 at the end of this episode, possibly both at the hands of good men.

Rafe of Time indeed ?

If Laila was pregnant. That would be extra brutal for Perrin if he knew it

So, if the show releases at 12:00am GMT and I'm in the US in MST time, I should be able to watch the next episode at 7:30 pm tonight?  Is that correct?

 

I've been waiting until Friday nights and hadn't really looked into when the episodes are actually available. But if I can watch it a night early that would be awesome. Is that the case?

2 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

So, if the show releases at 12:00am GMT and I'm in the US in MST time, I should be able to watch the next episode at 7:30 pm tonight?  Is that correct?

 

I've been waiting until Friday nights and hadn't really looked into when the episodes are actually available. But if I can watch it a night early that would be awesome. Is that the case?

https://savvytime.com/converter/gmt-to-mst

 

That says it's 5PM thursday

2 hours ago, Katherine said:

Ok so I am super excited to see this fight scene. 

 

Guess I really do have to see SOMEONE stab a pregnant lady which is going to be FRACKING INTENSE and I don't like it. 

 

But that is the scene. 

 

We really think that is Tam running to protect his comrades? We just can't have the most noble, best human in the books kill an expectant mother. It's just too horrific. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they do it. It makes the impact on Rand tremendous. And i wouldn't be surprised either way

 

But I don't understand the people who keep saying this is like Perrin killing Laila, pregnant or not. She was an enemy combatant who chose to enter battle despite being pregnant. In real life what should somebody do if their comrades are in danger from this person? 

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they do it. It makes the impact on Rand tremendous. And i wouldn't be surprised either way

 

But I don't understand the people who keep saying this is like Perrin killing Laila, pregnant or not. She was an enemy combatant who chose to enter battle despite being pregnant. In real life what should somebody do if their comrades are in danger from this person? 

 

16 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That says it's 5PM thursday

YES! That's great, I can watch it tonight!

33 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they do it. It makes the impact on Rand tremendous. And i wouldn't be surprised either way

 

But I don't understand the people who keep saying this is like Perrin killing Laila, pregnant or not. She was an enemy combatant who chose to enter battle despite being pregnant. In real life what should somebody do if their comrades are in danger from this person? 

I absolutely agree with you that in times of war, if someone comes at you with a spear you need to defend yourself.  However, if it is Tam that strikes the fatal blow it will be an absolutely horrible moment.   And for some here, another example of the show diminishing the male characters.   Tam was a great character. Honorable, and kind, and brave and loving.     Rand held onto the idea that he was really his father long past the point where logically he had to know it wasn't true.  One of my favorite lines from TGH is Lan telling Rand "in the borderlands, if a man has the raising of a child, that child is his."   To have Rand find out that Tam killed his mother would be nearly an unforgivable thing, and could destroy their relationship.   

 

Edited to add: And if Rafe goes that way it would feel (to me) like an excuse to make a change solely for the purpose of shock value.   YMMV

Edited December 16, 20213 yr by Yojimbo

18 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I absolutely agree with you that in times of war, if someone comes at you with a spear you need to defend yourself.  However, if it is Tam that strikes the fatal blow it will be an absolutely horrible moment.   And for some here, another example of the show diminishing the male characters.   Tam was a great character. Honorable, and kind, and brave and loving.     Rand held onto the idea that he was really his father long past the point where logically he had to know it wasn't true.  One of my favorite lines from TGH is Lan telling Rand "in the borderlands, if a man has the raising of a child, that child is his."   To have Rand find out that Tam killed his mother would be nearly an unforgivable thing, and could destroy their relationship.   

 

Edited to add: And if Rafe goes that way it would feel (to me) like an excuse to make a change solely for the purpose of shock value.   YMMV

I agree 100 percent.  Another step on the road to believing that the only way to tell a fantasy story is GOT style.  I hated that show and only lasted 6 episodes.   If that's the way Rafe is taking the show I won't be joining them on the journey after this season.  It will only get worse because shows who go this route have to keep topping up the shock values because people get habituated to it.  Thats why in many types of show the bad guys have to get more and more evil and/or powerful.  The situations go from threatening the city to threatening the multiverses.   I personally don't think this will happen in this show, but anything is possible at this point.  

 

Along this line here is my take.  The Aiel and Illianers are fighting with dying all around.  The Aiel maidens are fighting to protect Shaiel who is giving birth in the snow.  They kill almost all wetlanders but are all killed.  Tam has taken a wound but hears the DR crying in the snow.  He flounders forward and finds the baby crying at her dead momma's breast.  Momma having been wounded a day or so before but uses up all her strength in the birth.   Thats my story and i am sticking to it.

37 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I absolutely agree with you that in times of war, if someone comes at you with a spear you need to defend yourself.  However, if it is Tam that strikes the fatal blow it will be an absolutely horrible moment.   And for some here, another example of the show diminishing the male characters.   Tam was a great character. Honorable, and kind, and brave and loving.     Rand held onto the idea that he was really his father long past the point where logically he had to know it wasn't true.  One of my favorite lines from TGH is Lan telling Rand "in the borderlands, if a man has the raising of a child, that child is his."   To have Rand find out that Tam killed his mother would be nearly an unforgivable thing, and could destroy their relationship.   

 

Edited to add: And if Rafe goes that way it would feel (to me) like an excuse to make a change solely for the purpose of shock value.   YMMV

Not sure why is more shocking if Tam kills her than if his soldiers do.

 

And I'm not sure why you think it would be unforgivable if Rand knows she attacked Tam in battle, and he killed her defending himself. Remember, as you have said yourself, he considers Tam his father, and feels no emotional connection to Tigraine/Shaiel (yet). 

 

Why is it a diminution? 

 

As to why it would be changed, if it will be, I can think of several possibilities. Could be as simple as wanting to show her being killed, and conservation of time to have that at the same time as Tam finding the baby (I hope not this bc quite superficial), or this being the explanation of why Tam took the baby (I dobt see why that's necessary), or several other things. 

 

That doesn't mean I agree with the reasons, or would not prefer without the change, just that with every change I tend to assume they had a reason they considered sufficient (whether in world or for TV series portrayal), not just jump to negative assumptions. 

The acceptable compromise would be:

 

They duel, he wounds her, then she goes in labour, he helps her delivering the baby, she dies.

 

But knowing Rafe, it's more likely to be backstab while she drops Rand.

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Not sure why is more shocking if Tam kills her than if his soldiers do.  I should have qualified this.  For book fans it would be.   Non book fans don't know Tam, and may never get to know him, so they may not have as strong an attachment. 

 

And I'm not sure why you think it would be unforgivable if Rand knows she attacked Tam in battle, and he killed her defending himself. Remember, as you have said yourself, he considers Tam his father, and feels no emotional connection to Tigraine/Shaiel (yet). Because people react to things emotionally.   Imaging you are an adoptee, and find out years later that not only are you and adoptee, but your adopted father killed your birth mother.   

 

Why is it a diminution? I said some would feel that way.  I'm on the fence about that particular theory that most of the men have been diminished.  And again, non book fans probably wouldn't care as much since they don't know Tam like book fans do.  

 

As to why it would be changed, if it will be, I can think of several possibilities. Could be as simple as wanting to show her being killed, and conservation of time to have that at the same time as Tam finding the baby (I hope not this bc quite superficial), or this being the explanation of why Tam took the baby (I dobt see why that's necessary), or several other things. 

 

That doesn't mean I agree with the reasons, or would not prefer without the change, just that with every change I tend to assume they had a reason they considered sufficient (whether in world or for TV series portrayal), not just jump to negative assumptions. And my contention is that the reason they might feel it is sufficient is simple shock factor.   I know they are making this show more for non fans than fans, but every time they do something that many fans will feel strongly opposed to it shows just how little they are considering the actual fandom.   As is their right to do I suppose, but makes it more likely that they will continue to do things freak out and upset the fans.   

 

Edited December 16, 20213 yr by Yojimbo

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

 

Sorry I still don't understand. You agree that if a pregnant woman is an enemy combatant it is legitimate to kill her in defence of your comrades. So there is no shock as regards Tam's personality. (Unless you mean Tam had Rand's women hangup??) 

 

I assumed you meant shock value of a heavily pregnant woman being killed onscreen.

 

??

25 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

  I know they are making this show more for non fans than fans, but every time they do something that many fans will feel strongly opposed to it shows just how little they are considering the actual fandom.   As is their right to do I suppose, but makes it more likely that they will continue to do things freak out and upset the fans.   

 

Edited 21 minutes ago by Yojimbo

 

 

 

From what we have seen on this forum, the fans who are "freaking out" and getting upset, are those who agreed (obviously) there have to be changes to convert it to a TV show, but are not willing to consider (or accept) that the show runners have a much broader approach to that than they wanted. 

 

BS has spoken at length about the necessity for changing the whole structure in order to make it a genuine TV series that can be followed and understood by non readers. 

 

If you don't accept that this is their motivation, you end up considering every change to be either because "they want to tell their story not RJ's," or to be agenda-driven. 

 

If so, you would of course say that "they don't care about the fandom." Etc etc

 

If you assume they are well-motivated, even if you strongly disagree, you will not say this, and will be willing to think about every change and consider it on its own merits. 

 

Since it seems most fans do like the show, whether by disconnecting it from the books or not, I'm not sure how you can say "the fans," unless of course you mean that we who are not reacting in the same way as you are not #truefans. 

 

Personally there are many things I think have not been done as well as they could (should) have been. Some of the dialogue is clunky, some of the acting is wooden (Kerene!?), some of the changes I think are unnecessary, the pacing has been totally off especially in the end parts of ep1 and ep6. 

 

However, I still have no reason not to trust them and believe they are doing what they think is the right thing, for book fans as well as non book fans. 

 

34 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Sorry I still don't understand. You agree that if a pregnant woman is an enemy combatant it is legitimate to kill her in defence of your comrades. So there is no shock as regards Tam's personality. (Unless you mean Tam had Rand's women hangup??) 

 

I assumed you meant shock value of a heavily pregnant woman being killed onscreen.

 

??

Never mind then.  I was talking about having a visceral reaction to something; the killing of one character's mother by that character's adoptive father, and not analyzing everyone so dispassionately. 

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

Never mind then.  I was talking about having a visceral reaction to something; the killing of one character's mother by that character's adoptive father, and not analyzing everyone so dispassionately. 

 

Ok

 

Anyway, only three hours until we can know everything

I'm off, so I won't get to see any last minute predictions. So I'll leave this here...

 

I'm sorry. you were a good thread. You were read like Teaser Trailer never could be. I'm sorry

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

But knowing Rafe, it's more likely to be backstab while she drops Rand.

What is the comparable scene you are referring to here? Where is the "just for shock value" change that establishes this as something we should expect from Rafe? 

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What is the comparable scene you are referring to here? Where is the "just for shock value" change that establishes this as something we should expect from Rafe? 

Fridge wife + Mat's family suggest to me that if he can try to enhance emotions with these Tropes (kill relative/disfunctional family) he will do that. I think he lacks subtlety in this regard. 

 

Therefore, I will not be surprised if he chooses this path (which is somewhat GoT-esque as they are trying desperately to mimic GoT on the "shock" part)

10 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Fridge wife + Mat's family suggest to me that if he can try to enhance emotions with these Tropes (kill relative/disfunctional family) he will do that. I think he lacks subtlety in this regard. 

 

Therefore, I will not be surprised if he chooses this path (which is somewhat GoT-esque as they are trying desperately to mimic GoT on the "shock" part)

Okay, but those changes served a purpose. They gave backstory to characters who lacked one and are making an effort to dig into things that were present in the books. What purpose would Tam killing Tigraine serve?

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay, but those changes served a purpose. They gave backstory to characters who lacked one and are making an effort to dig into things that were present in the books. What purpose would Tam killing Tigraine serve?

Starting Rand torment earlier, I suppose.  But you are right, those previous changes had a purpose but if they decided to pursue Tam killing Shaiel it is possible that it would have a purpose as well.  Just not something we might be able to see right now.

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay, but those changes served a purpose. They gave backstory to characters who lacked one and are making an effort to dig into things that were present in the books. What purpose would Tam killing Tigraine serve?

Well i politely disagree. They were Tropes to "shock" and prompt characters then needed their engine started immediately because there was no time to do them properly ( we needed to know everything About Steppin, no?).

So you are the wife-killer and you the thief with broken family, problem solved

 

Now it's undeniable that Having Tam killing Rand mum is a dish served on a Silver plate for Rafe, because allows for playing the trope of the melanchonic man living in remorse