I feel like the series really starts to drag in the middle and should probably have been maybe nine or ten books. I'm curious about what others think. This is what I would do:

 

• Remove the Seanchan entirely (everything about them, not just their POVs)
• Remove Valan Luca and the circus stuff
• Remove the Kin and probably the Windfinders
• Remove most of the camping captive stuff (a lot of this is Shaido)
• Trim the Tower novice lessons

 

Getting rid of the Seanchan alone eliminates or trims a bunch of other character POV chapters where they're dealing with the invasion one way or another, on top of the Seanchan POVs themselves. Besides, being in the minds of slavers is just gross.

 

It seems like every woman in the series gets captured at least once and spends time as a prisoner in one camp or another, which is just repetitive and excessive. The discovery of new weaves and re-discovery of lost abilities or talents doesn't require a bunch of new POVs. Neither does the quest to find the Bowl of the Winds. And there's too much switching and dishwashing and so on with characters in the White Tower.

 

There are some pretty annoying Nynaeve POV chapters outside of those bullet points that could go. I also think you could probably get rid of most of the Morgase/Gareth Bryne stuff, and move the rebel Aes Sedai along much more quickly.

 

I can't fail to note that trimming the books might have allowed RJ to complete the series himself. I'm mainly talking about structural stuff here, not mild annoyances like highly improbable knife throwing, but if you have thoughts on that I'd like to hear them, too. So what would you change to improve the series ("Nothing" is a perfectly valid answer)?

Make the Aiel black. That is all. 

Well you could cut out a lot of stuff and still get to the end of the story... But what would be the point  ? It would no longer be the book series Jordan wrote , which has so enthralled all of us that we spend time on here nit picking about every tiny detail  🙂

 

Any long book - or series thereof - is likely to contain some fluff that might be done without : but opinions would differ as to which bits are best removed. I for one am happy to take it as it was written ... minor flaws and all...

I'm good with removing the circus.

25 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I'm good with removing the circus.

For all the amusement of Nyn in her low-cut dress and Elayne in her trousers, yeah, I agree. I still remember my frustration each time Nyn tells them to turn the wagons around (happens once with the circus and once with a wagon, I think) and start to really slowly go back the way they came. While arguing if they are going to eat beans or vegetables. 

 

And to be fair, pretty much the whole Shaido arc, including the Prophet. And the Seanchan Gardeners. And Beslan. And Setalle Anan. And the Kin. And Oliver, the odious little gremlin. And the battle tactics and endless duels at Tar'mon Gaiden. Or perhaps more exactly it would be nice if these arcs didn't just peter out to really unsatisfactory conclusions. But the story would be much less rich without them. And it is largely down to how Jordan wove all these different threads together to make such a magnificent tapestry. Not all story arcs have to be super meaningful, some should be red herrings, some should fall short of their potential. But some things like the Prophet that went on for so long, that picked up so much pace along the way just to be tossed aside as irrelevant, with pretty much no explanation but he was mad, then corrupted (which kind of contradicted his religious zeal in the first place, he kills thousands for not acclaiming the Dragon Reborn and by the time we get to his POV, he is actively sabotaging the Dragon? It felt... contrived to mesh into the dumpster fire that was the Shaido arc) was kind of grating. 

theres bits and pieces, but nothing cut out as such, just changed a bit

 

the top of the list is to rewrite Failes character, and adjust Perrins arc....its just gratingly painful to read for me....

 

.... i really enjoyed the circus and Mat and Tuons courtship....

 

 

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

And to be fair, pretty much the whole Shaido arc, including the Prophet. And the Seanchan Gardeners. And Beslan. And Setalle Anan. And the Kin.

 

Although The Wheel of Time is my personal number 1 favorite series of novels of ALL time, I wouldn't have minded one little bit if the long, long Shaido arc after they were defeated in The Fires of Heaven was removed from the series. I understand why Robert Jordan made that arc wit the captivities necessary because that was the plot line used to show growth in the characters of Perrin and everyone with him. However, the Wheel of Time stories would have been just fine without the Shaido rampaging through the Wetlands. Also, the stories and characters of the Prophet and his henchmen, as well as the chapters with the Kin really didn't interest me very much. Whenever I do another re-read, I skim quickly through those chapters. 

On 12/20/2024 at 4:17 AM, driftnet said:

I feel like the series really starts to drag in the middle and should probably have been maybe nine or ten books. I'm curious about what others think. This is what I would do:

 

• Remove the Seanchan entirely (everything about them, not just their POVs)
• Remove Valan Luca and the circus stuff
• Remove the Kin and probably the Windfinders
• Remove most of the camping captive stuff (a lot of this is Shaido)
• Trim the Tower novice lessons

 

Getting rid of the Seanchan alone eliminates or trims a bunch of other character POV chapters where they're dealing with the invasion one way or another, on top of the Seanchan POVs themselves. Besides, being in the minds of slavers is just gross.

 

It seems like every woman in the series gets captured at least once and spends time as a prisoner in one camp or another, which is just repetitive and excessive. The discovery of new weaves and re-discovery of lost abilities or talents doesn't require a bunch of new POVs. Neither does the quest to find the Bowl of the Winds. And there's too much switching and dishwashing and so on with characters in the White Tower.

 

There are some pretty annoying Nynaeve POV chapters outside of those bullet points that could go. I also think you could probably get rid of most of the Morgase/Gareth Bryne stuff, and move the rebel Aes Sedai along much more quickly.

 

I can't fail to note that trimming the books might have allowed RJ to complete the series himself. I'm mainly talking about structural stuff here, not mild annoyances like highly improbable knife throwing, but if you have thoughts on that I'd like to hear them, too. So what would you change to improve the series ("Nothing" is a perfectly valid answer)?

 

After all of the issues, there is only one thing I would change with it, and it is my biggest dislike of the show..... More freaking episodes to the season from the beginning would have been nice!!! 

Well, there's quite a lot to be honest. But then again I'm a very different type of writer. 😛 

Here's what I'd do:

1. Have the Shaido Aiel be definitively defeated at Dumai's Wells. End that storyline there.

2. Cut out the entire storyline with the weather being affected by the DO and the Bowl of Winds.

3. Significantly cut down the circus stuff. (IE: only use it for a chapter or two to escape, but not linger at the circus and get to know characters there. We do have Nynaeve and Elayne rescue the leader, though, so Mat can cash in a favor later on.)

4. A forsaken + trollocks become the reason Perrin has to coorperate with the Seanchan.

5. Rand keeps tabs on Perrin a bit more, and finds out what the Prophet's been up to. He freaks and blows him away with weaves of fire.

6. Rand does go back to the Black Tower, but Lews Therin nearly takes over and Rand can only barely stop LT from murdering Mazrim Taim. Use this as the reason why Rand doesn't dare go back to the Tower for so long.

7. Tone down Cadsuane a tad, and have her sacrifice herself to keep Rand safe at the cleansing, leaving him to rely on Nynaeve as his Aes Sedai council. Focus a bit more on the friendship between Rand and Nynaeve.
8. Padin Fain needs more in the last part of the story (obviously). Maybe he can nearly take over the battle, and we can have Nynaeve come up with the idea that Mat may be able to help, go fetch him and he saves the day. Perhaps we need a different solution here, as Mat has too much to do in that scenario. I'm not sure. Maybe we need Padan Fain to be defeated earlier. End of the first act of the final book, maybe. This one's challenging to fix.

 

Oh and of course:

0. Rewrite the ending of book 1, as that one's a mess. We need to be clearer as to why we need to go to the EotW in the first place. Then we cut the green man, have only one forsaken show up, Moiraine only barely manages to hold him off until Rand comes in and wrecks him. Find a proper way of having Rand save the Shienar soldiers who are trying to hold off that army of trollocks. This one will take a lot of work as well.

 

What am I forgetting about?

On 1/14/2025 at 8:04 AM, Asthereal said:

8. Padin Fain needs more in the last part of the story (obviously). Maybe he can nearly take over the battle, and we can have Nynaeve come up with the idea that Mat may be able to help, go fetch him and he saves the day. Perhaps we need a different solution here, as Mat has too much to do in that scenario. I'm not sure. Maybe we need Padan Fain to be defeated earlier. End of the first act of the final book, maybe. This one's challenging to fix.

 

 

 

No, Fain was never going to be a big baddie in the end.

You were fooled by his ramblings and delusions of grandeur. The guy was completely insane by the end of book 3 at the latest.

The Shadar Logath Taint was created by the pattern so the Dragon could cleanse saidin 2000 years later and Fain was created to give each of the boys individual pushes towards their proper paths.

He was never outside the pattern despite what he believed.

His final purpose was done after slashing Rand across the previous wound and it was just a matter of time until the pattern corrected him with Mat who was set up to do so from almost day 1.

His death was anticlimactic because it was supposed to be. He was never what he believed he was. 

On 3/5/2025 at 1:11 AM, Finnssss22 said:

No, Fain was never going to be a big baddie in the end.

You were fooled by his ramblings and delusions of grandeur. The guy was completely insane by the end of book 3 at the latest.

The Shadar Logath Taint was created by the pattern so the Dragon could cleanse saidin 2000 years later and Fain was created to give each of the boys individual pushes towards their proper paths.

He was never outside the pattern despite what he believed.

His final purpose was done after slashing Rand across the previous wound and it was just a matter of time until the pattern corrected him with Mat who was set up to do so from almost day 1.

His death was anticlimactic because it was supposed to be. He was never what he believed he was. 

 

Very much disagree. Padan Fain is an important character who comes back regularly and causes a lot of trouble. You don't know (and can't know) what role Fain was going to play. You can only have an opinion about it, and if you feel like Fain's ending was appropriate, that's cool, but I feel like the character deserved more than he got. His ending to me felt like an afterthought.

 

You can compare it to the Prophet. Sanderson probably had very little to go on for him as well, and decided too many things were going on already, so he cut him out in the beginning of book 12. This made sense to me. If he wanted to do the same with Fain, he could have had Mat kill him somewhere in the beginning of book 13. That way, Fain wouldn't be part of the grand finale and perhaps I'd be more okay with it. It could have been used as an action-packed part of the beginning, to jump-start the book. The way it's written now, Fain pops up briefly here and there, and then kind of comes out of nowhere in the finale, after which he just dies in two paragraphs. I'd say either develop him more and make his ending more impactful (perhaps have him kill an important character before Mat destroys him), or just Masema him out of the story in an opener somewhere. But I'd go for developing him more. Fain's been with us since the very beginning and he nearly  succeeded in killing Rand several times. Whenever he shows himself, cool stuff happens (as opposed to Masema who is very much part of the slog). I wanted more.

4 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

Very much disagree. Padan Fain is an important character who comes back regularly and causes a lot of trouble. You don't know (and can't know) what role Fain was going to play. You can only have an opinion about it, and if you feel like Fain's ending was appropriate, that's cool, but I feel like the character deserved more than he got. His ending to me felt like an afterthought.

 

You can compare it to the Prophet. Sanderson probably had very little to go on for him as well, and decided too many things were going on already, so he cut him out in the beginning of book 12. This made sense to me. If he wanted to do the same with Fain, he could have had Mat kill him somewhere in the beginning of book 13. That way, Fain wouldn't be part of the grand finale and perhaps I'd be more okay with it. It could have been used as an action-packed part of the beginning, to jump-start the book. The way it's written now, Fain pops up briefly here and there, and then kind of comes out of nowhere in the finale, after which he just dies in two paragraphs. I'd say either develop him more and make his ending more impactful (perhaps have him kill an important character before Mat destroys him), or just Masema him out of the story in an opener somewhere. But I'd go for developing him more. Fain's been with us since the very beginning and he nearly  succeeded in killing Rand several times. Whenever he shows himself, cool stuff happens (as opposed to Masema who is very much part of the slog). I wanted more.

 

But you do understand that him boasting/thinking he's outside the pattern is completely self delusional right?

Shadar Logath and its evil was literally created by the Pattern to provide Rand a way to cleanse saidin.

All that evil does is consume everything around it and itself. 

Only reason Fain wasn't consumed was because of what Ishamael did to him to make him into a hound for the Shadow much in the same way the 2 evils in Rand's wound hold each other at bay.

 

Fain and the SL taint are integral to pushing Mat to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

Fain is integral to pushing Perrin to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

Fain is integral to pushing Rand to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

 

That is what the pattern set Fain up to do.

 

We're talking about a guy that is completely insane by book 3 at the latest. Doesn't accomplish anything that doesn't have to do with pushing the boys and literally runs away at the slightest resistance over and over and over.

 

Other than his own mad ramblings and delusions of grandeur there is absolutely nothing to indicate he will accomplish more or deserves to be greater other than in his own mind.

 

I'm telling you, you have been fooled my friend.

Edited March 6Mar 6 by Finnssss22

On 3/6/2025 at 3:59 PM, Finnssss22 said:

But you do understand that him boasting/thinking he's outside the pattern is completely self delusional right?

Shadar Logath and its evil was literally created by the Pattern to provide Rand a way to cleanse saidin.

All that evil does is consume everything around it and itself. 

Only reason Fain wasn't consumed was because of what Ishamael did to him to make him into a hound for the Shadow much in the same way the 2 evils in Rand's wound hold each other at bay.

 

Fain and the SL taint are integral to pushing Mat to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

Fain is integral to pushing Perrin to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

Fain is integral to pushing Rand to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

 

That is what the pattern set Fain up to do.

 

We're talking about a guy that is completely insane by book 3 at the latest. Doesn't accomplish anything that doesn't have to do with pushing the boys and literally runs away at the slightest resistance over and over and over.

 

Other than his own mad ramblings and delusions of grandeur there is absolutely nothing to indicate he will accomplish more or deserves to be greater other than in his own mind.

 

I'm telling you, you have been fooled my friend.

 

I do understand Fain has delusions of grandeur, and perhaps I have indeed been fooled. But to me it's a storytelling thing. The way it was written didn't work for me. And I'm definitely not alone in this. As I understand it's one of the main criticisms on Brandon's WoT books.

 

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. 🙂 

On 3/10/2025 at 7:07 AM, Asthereal said:

 

I do understand Fain has delusions of grandeur, and perhaps I have indeed been fooled. But to me it's a storytelling thing. The way it was written didn't work for me. And I'm definitely not alone in this. As I understand it's one of the main criticisms on Brandon's WoT books.

 

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. 🙂 

 

No, no, that's fair. I also believe RJ would've set it up Fain's final flop better.

On 3/10/2025 at 4:07 AM, Asthereal said:

I do understand Fain has delusions of grandeur, and perhaps I have indeed been fooled. But to me it's a storytelling thing. The way it was written didn't work for me. And I'm definitely not alone in this. As I understand it's one of the main criticisms on Brandon's WoT books.

I don't think he was as deluded as others do.  I believe he was the patterns failsafe if Rand did wrong.  There has to be evil and good so to speak for there to be a balance of free will.  Because of Free Will and the endless turning there is bound to or may already have been times when the Dragon ends the Dark One.  No Dark One, no third power to wield in sealing the bore, no transference to a new body, the Dragon Dies too, there's a void now that has to be filled and, oh look, a crazed evil that can slide into it and be trapped, growing and growing until we have a new Dark One.

But, Rand made the right choice and so the rest of the process doesn't matter and Matt snips the thread.

As for my changes, I don't believe in doing major rewrites.  I only have two things that stood out to me in the books that I went "Wait... what?"

#1) I liked Demandred as Taim and I thought it was an interesting development.  We obviously don't know why RJ changed it, though I feel it's because we as a whole figured it out too easily and fast...  But I don't like it changes.

#2) I never liked Graendel vs Perrin in the last arcs.  I think she should have just died to Rand and been reborn instead of escaping, then failing, then being reborn.   We also had Moghedien who was a Dream Walking master that just vanishes for multiple books.   Put two and two together, Rand takes out Graendel, Moghedien takes on Perrin, maybe even perishing to him due to, again, not understanding that the One Power doesn't outpace T'A'R

On 3/22/2025 at 6:41 AM, KakitaOCU said:

I don't think he was as deluded as others do.  I believe he was the patterns failsafe if Rand did wrong.  There has to be evil and good so to speak for there to be a balance of free will.  Because of Free Will and the endless turning there is bound to or may already have been times when the Dragon ends the Dark One.  No Dark One, no third power to wield in sealing the bore, no transference to a new body, the Dragon Dies too, there's a void now that has to be filled and, oh look, a crazed evil that can slide into it and be trapped, growing and growing until we have a new Dark One.

 

I don't think this is canon, but it's an interesting idea. I interpret the story very differently, but it doesn't really matter, as the story has many aspects we can enjoy theorizing about, and it's cool that everyone has their own view on things.

(Mine is that the Dragon Reborn will never choose wrong, the Dark One will always be sealed back in his prison and this whole cycle will repeat indefinitely, just as the Creator designed, without opportunities for the parties involved to learn and change the pattern as a whole.)

 

I do like your change about having Perrin face off with Moghedien. That feels like a natural duel of the dreamwalkers. But then again Perrin already needs to be at Shayol Ghul at the ending with Lanfear, so I guess Jorderson didn't want to have Perrin fight another dreamwalker. Besides, Moghedien not really participating in the Last Battle is very much in character, and I did very much like how she ended. 🙂 (Ha! Take that you idiot!)

I'd make the Forsaken come across as a bit more threatening on a global scale. I feel like all the info on how big of a threat they are is there, but it doesn't always feel like they have the momentum they should. 

 

That is really it, and even withiut that change, I feel like I understand what RJ was going for. 

The books that people say drag are the ones I go back to over and over when I just want to dip in for a few books. 
 

For me I think if RJ was starting the series over knowing he had that many books to tell his story you would

find books 1-4 written very differently and that may have led to some trimming as certain repetition would have probably been removed the final fights in books 1-3 are all very similar, as is a lot of the general narrative of travel to a place, get captured, go back to the white tower, travel to another place, get captured. 
 

 

 

1. Give Demandred an actual good opening. I mean, his scenes in LoC were cool, but his first actual scene at Shadar Logoth, he, one of the most powerful men of the Age of Legends, is beaten by an Asha'man.

2. Have Sammael make a comeback. Unsatisfying death.

3. Padan Fain. You know what I mean

4. Cut Tylin. Nearly made me quit the series in disgust.

9 hours ago, TwinStorm said:

1. Give Demandred an actual good opening. I mean, his scenes in LoC were cool, but his first actual scene at Shadar Logoth, he, one of the most powerful men of the Age of Legends, is beaten by an Asha'man.

2. Have Sammael make a comeback. Unsatisfying death.

3. Padan Fain. You know what I mean

4. Cut Tylin. Nearly made me quit the series in disgust.

1: I don't agree that he lost to an Asha'Man, he lost to a circle of 3.  But, I feel his diminishment again goes back to Jordan's change.  Remember, at the time Lord of Chaos was written Demandred lead the charge to save Rand from the Tower Sisters and the Shaido.

2: Don't agree, but don't disagree.  🙂

3: Spoke on this, but yeah.  🙂

4: I like Tylin in the book to be honest.  Jordan was very much writing a gender reversal in terms of prominence and power and authority.  Tylin is a female version of the male college kid or rich kid who does what they want and does criminally evil things and get's ignored because "Oh, you know how they are.  Queen's will be Queens..."   It's part of the gender inequality build the same way having a female pope or predominantly queens.

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

1: I don't agree that he lost to an Asha'Man, he lost to a circle of 3.  But, I feel his diminishment again goes back to Jordan's change.  Remember, at the time Lord of Chaos was written Demandred lead the charge to save Rand from the Tower Sisters and the Shaido.

2: Don't agree, but don't disagree.  🙂

3: Spoke on this, but yeah.  🙂

4: I like Tylin in the book to be honest.  Jordan was very much writing a gender reversal in terms of prominence and power and authority.  Tylin is a female version of the male college kid or rich kid who does what they want and does criminally evil things and get's ignored because "Oh, you know how they are.  Queen's will be Queens..."   It's part of the gender inequality build the same way having a female pope or predominantly queens.

I mean that's fair, but even so if its Demandred's first entrance, and he will play a major role in the last book, at least give him a good intro.

*sigh*

 

Okay, I get that, but it's disgusting to me and completely unnecessary. it's all really just time filler and Nynaeve and Elayne's reaction to Mat getting raped is . . . disgusting

25 minutes ago, TwinStorm said:

I mean that's fair, but even so if its Demandred's first entrance, and he will play a major role in the last book, at least give him a good intro.

*sigh*

 

Okay, I get that, but it's disgusting to me and completely unnecessary. it's all really just time filler and Nynaeve and Elayne's reaction to Mat getting raped is . . . disgusting

Agree that it could have been handled better, just trying to look at on the bright side for Demandred.  🙂

Yes, it is disgusting, and Nynaeve and Elayne writing it off as Mat deserving it is disgusting, and Mat getting SA'd is disgusting.

Just like what happens constantly, day in and day out with real people.  And it's dismissed and ignored the same way.  

I don't believe Mr. Jordan wrote it to be anything other than disgusting and reprehensible.  But it did have a purpose and point in line with the overall narrative.

13 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Agree that it could have been handled better, just trying to look at on the bright side for Demandred.  🙂

Yes, it is disgusting, and Nynaeve and Elayne writing it off as Mat deserving it is disgusting, and Mat getting SA'd is disgusting.

Just like what happens constantly, day in and day out with real people.  And it's dismissed and ignored the same way.  

I don't believe Mr. Jordan wrote it to be anything other than disgusting and reprehensible.  But it did have a purpose and point in line with the overall narrative.

I guess so, it just seemed like wasting time in an already overlong series

3 hours ago, TwinStorm said:

I guess so, it just seemed like wasting time in an already overlong series

Definitely understand that, and, for you, it may have been a waste of time.  Or maybe it helped in ways that, while unrelated to you specifically enjoying the story, were beneficial.
 

I obviously am not in Mr. Jordan's head and cannot definitively state what his intention was.  But for me, much like the book Towers of Sunset by L. E. Modesitt Jr, seeing someone put a man in a situation women often have to face, and seeing so many men respond in one form or another to these situations that they sometimes did not really understand has been something I've appreciated.

I thought Tylin was confusing. Perhaps deliberately so, so each individual reader can take what they want out of it. 

 

On one hand you see from Mat's point of view that he doesn't mind the chasing, except it should be him that should be doing the chasing. For that to work, Tylin should only be using the tactics that Mat would have used, which doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

On the other, we have a case of dubious consent, where Mat does consent but just wants to assert dominance that slides very much into non-consent while playing it for laughs. Neither of these things seems conducive to seriously exploring the issue. Especially as it seems to rely on "he enjoyed it, it wasn't assault" argument that surrounds any discussion of female on male assault, even when we talking about children. 

 

I can only hope Jordan was wanting to hold up a mirror to the gender reversal to see what people saw of themselves in it rather than it being a serious attempt at discussion. 

Edited March 30Mar 30 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade