22 minutes ago, Millon said:

Hahahahaha. Not a book purist at all. I understand the necessity of change for the screen. Absolutely. The changes I dislike are the symbols that had no real reason. The serpent ring, the trefoil leaf and Waygates. None of those changes push a narrative but are exactly the things I wanted to see. Costume design has been terrible. I love what they did with the other things I wanted so I continue to watch but over all, it’s just not that good to me. 

Oh, no! You really didn’t like the costumes??? I think they’re so beautiful! Especially Moiraine’s leather shoulder piece that she wore in S1 and pretty much all of Lanfear’s clothes. *grabby hands* 
You’re so right, though. TONS of liberties taken and I can absolutely see why you’d dislike that. I gotta say, I wholeheartedly agree when it comes to the Seanchan. The suldam looked pretty cool and I liked the damane hairdo, but the rest… weird. It just didn’t settle into a strong identity. I didn’t see a lot of rhyme and reason to the masks and patterns on clothes. And the nail thing?? Yikes. 
I do love how subtly out of place Ish’s clothes always are. They seem to fit and then you catch a detail that was clearly from another age. 
What would you change if you had your way? 

2 hours ago, AlsBeck Luhhan said:

Oh, no! You really didn’t like the costumes??? I think they’re so beautiful! Especially Moiraine’s leather shoulder piece that she wore in S1 and pretty much all of Lanfear’s clothes. *grabby hands* 
You’re so right, though. TONS of liberties taken and I can absolutely see why you’d dislike that. I gotta say, I wholeheartedly agree when it comes to the Seanchan. The suldam looked pretty cool and I liked the damane hairdo, but the rest… weird. It just didn’t settle into a strong identity. I didn’t see a lot of rhyme and reason to the masks and patterns on clothes. And the nail thing?? Yikes. 
I do love how subtly out of place Ish’s clothes always are. They seem to fit and then you catch a detail that was clearly from another age. 
What would you change if you had your way? 

Hmmmm, that’s a tough one. Aside from what I said about the imagery I’m not sure how much that isn’t production or direction. This show had a bigger budget than GoT, right? So, why couldn’t we get a grand shot of The Stone? The Blight looked cartoonish. The scene of Rand and Tam in the very first episode on the cart path looked so terrible. The grass and stone visibly looked like a back alley theatre set. I will also never forgive the poor directing that allowed Rand to disrespect his bow like that and just toss it like it’s trash. I will die on that hill. I also thought it really lazy writing to ice Perrin’s wife. The Seanchan leash and collars I think would have translated as the horrendous things as they were much more than pacifiers. I like how main characters are being offed. I always thought the bloat could have been avoided in the books if Jordan would have been willing to off more characters. So not a whole lot I’d change. Perrin didn’t need a wife. Moiraine and Shaun’s relationship didn’t need to be fleshed out. The story is about the Aemond’s Fielders. Neither of those pushes plot in any way. Make changes that push the established plot. A lot of the changes don’t do anything even remotely close. Not even going to mention the ridiculousness of women Dragons. The whole risk of Male dragons is the madness of that side of the source. Makes no sense to even have the taint at all if there can be women dragons. It’s just forced. 

Edited February 24Feb 24 by Millon

7 minutes ago, Millon said:

Hmmmm, that’s a tough one. Aside from what I said about the imagery I’m not sure how much that isn’t production or direction. This show had a bigger budget than GoT, right? So, why couldn’t we get a grand shot of The Stone? The Blight looked cartoonish. The scene of Rand and Tam in the very first episode on the cart path looked so terrible. The grass and stone visibly looked like a back alley theatre set. I will also never forgive the poor directing that allowed Rand to disrespect his bow like that and just toss it like it’s trash. I will die on that hill. I also thought it really lazy writing to ice Perrin’s wife. The Seanchan leash and collars I think would have translated as the horrendous things as they were much more than pacifiers. I like how main characters are being offed. I always thought the bloat could have been avoided in the books if Jordan would have been willing to off more characters. So not a whole lot I’d change. Perrin didn’t need a wife. Moiraine and Shaun’s relationship didn’t need to be fleshed out. The story is about the Aemond’s Fielders. Neither of those pushes plot in any way. Make changes that push the established plot. A lot of the changes don’t do anything even remotely close. Not even going to mention the ridiculousness of women Dragons. The whole risk of Male dragons is the madness of that side of the source. Makes no sense to even have the taint at all if there can be women dragons. It’s just forced. 

As a person who voraciously supports queer representation, I cheered for joy when I saw the Siuan and Moiraine relationship fully realized. I hated the dancing around “pillow friends” BS from

the books. Queers exist in every space and it’s time they were clearly centered.
I feel similarly about the obliteration of unnecessary gender-based differentiation. The books are extremely dated in respect to gender ideology and I’m stoked to see that draconian crap left in the dust. 

15 minutes ago, AlsBeck Luhhan said:

As a person who voraciously supports queer representation, I cheered for joy when I saw the Siuan and Moiraine relationship fully realized. I hated the dancing around “pillow friends” BS from

the books. Queers exist in every space and it’s time they were clearly centered.
I feel similarly about the obliteration of unnecessary gender-based differentiation. The books are extremely dated in respect to gender ideology and I’m stoked to see that draconian crap left in the dust. 

Oh absolutely. I’m a huge supporter. Adding this did nothing to drive plot though, is all I’m saying. If it had a real impact on the story then by all means. 

It is true that the Suian-Moiraine relationship does not further the dragon plot any, but it does deepen Moiraine's character. Given that this is obviously one of the goals of the show, along with her relationship with Lan, and her elderly little sister, etc, and casting the headline actress and producer in the role, it does fit the vision of the series, and definitely goes some way to correct Jordan's near fetishism over pillow friends. I've never quite known if it was a case of Jordan wanting to be inclusive but male homosexuality was taboo in those days, or if he really thought women are just sex mad at their core, or it was just his heterosexual perspective that women are objectively attractive while men are not. 

 

One thing I definitely agree with is how cheap some of the scenes appeared, especially in the first series. One possibility for this is I read they were deliberately using Asian influenced visuals to increase the popularity there, which tends towards more bright colours than the more natural grubbiness we favour in the West. So when in nature, I think that kind of clashed for me. The scenes travelling through the forest felt like some amateur LARP scene, though it is difficult to say exactly how when they are literally just travelling through a forest. 

7 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is true that the Suian-Moiraine relationship does not further the dragon plot any, but it does deepen Moiraine's character. Given that this is obviously one of the goals of the show, along with her relationship with Lan, and her elderly little sister, etc, and casting the headline actress and producer in the role, it does fit the vision of the series, and definitely goes some way to correct Jordan's near fetishism over pillow friends. I've never quite known if it was a case of Jordan wanting to be inclusive but male homosexuality was taboo in those days, or if he really thought women are just sex mad at their core, or it was just his heterosexual perspective that women are objectively attractive while men are not. 

 

One thing I definitely agree with is how cheap some of the scenes appeared, especially in the first series. One possibility for this is I read they were deliberately using Asian influenced visuals to increase the popularity there, which tends towards more bright colours than the more natural grubbiness we favour in the West. So when in nature, I think that kind of clashed for me. The scenes travelling through the forest felt like some amateur LARP scene, though it is difficult to say exactly how when they are literally just travelling through a forest. 

Frankly, I think the “pillow friends” thing was an attempt to insert queerness into the story in a positive way, but given the homophobic climate into which these books were released, it was more of a wink than a full-throated endorsement of queer identity. 
I also think there was a bit of pillow-fight-panty-sleepover fetishism going on there. Cishet dudes. 🤷🏼‍♀️🤦‍♀️

The point is that WoT was published into a society that attempted to ruin the careers of out queers just for that purpose. Ellen DeGeneres (who is no bastion of goodness, but that’s irrelevant) had her show cancelled and was driven off projects when she came out. Nathan Lane was terrorized after The Birdcage…. Etcetera for a mile long list of homophobia. This is the time WoT was born into. 
Gender politics are STILL a hot button issue, which just goes to show how unevolved humanity still is. And THIS is why the show needed to be tweaked in that respect. This is an epic story that is very important to a lot of people. That’s power that should be used for the betterment of humanity. 
A subtle example of this is the show’s  Ishamael. He is very comfortable being physically affectionate and overtly flirtatious with any gendered person. He is 3000 years old and comes from a more evolved time. It’s a beautiful nod to how homophobia and gender politics have numbered days in our world. Now, if we could only see a pansexual protagonist…. The series is young. 🙂 

 

I swear to every conceived deity if they pair off Moiraine and Thom like Sanderson’s ham-fisted, religiously motivated, Bechdel-ruining, dumbass pink bow at the end, I’ll scream. 

 

Lol, the Moiraine and Thom thing always seemed like something Jordan forgot about. Right near the beginning there is the comment "I know my future husbands face better than you do" then nothing. His subplot of revenge on his nephews killers was dropped. I kinda think like Padan Fain was missing from Jordan's notes, he probably left something like Moiraine and Thom written in a heart in the margins but nothing else. It is one of things that just makes no sense at the end. I'm not sure it is fair to blame Sanderson for anything he hasn't owned up to personally as there was obviously heavy editing going on above his head. 

 

Jordan I think is on record as saying "what do you think would happen amongst a whole bunch of teenage girls?" (or words to that effect) but I've never seen any indication of teenage boys or men in the story acting similarly. Also the way it is presented in the most part as a phase is off putting. Though again that could have been to make it more acceptable to society, or perhaps Jordan was bisexual and thought it normal that everyone needed to suppress homosexual feelings that could get out of hand. And don't even get me started on the spanking or female nudity... 

2 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Lol, the Moiraine and Thom thing always seemed like something Jordan forgot about. Right near the beginning there is the comment "I know my future husbands face better than you do" then nothing. His subplot of revenge on his nephews killers was dropped. I kinda think like Padan Fain was missing from Jordan's notes, he probably left something like Moiraine and Thom written in a heart in the margins but nothing else. It is one of things that just makes no sense at the end. I'm not sure it is fair to blame Sanderson for anything he hasn't owned up to personally as there was obviously heavy editing going on above his head. 

 

Jordan I think is on record as saying "what do you think would happen amongst a whole bunch of teenage girls?" (or words to that effect) but I've never seen any indication of teenage boys or men in the story acting similarly. Also the way it is presented in the most part as a phase is off putting. Though again that could have been to make it more acceptable to society, or perhaps Jordan was bisexual and thought it normal that everyone needed to suppress homosexual feelings that could get out of hand. And don't even get me started on the spanking or female nudity... 

OMG- I am with you!!! All the cishetbro spankbank material just made me roll my eyes. Lots of fetishism coming out there. 
Nothing’s perfect but they can still be wonderful. 🙂 

Now, more badass middle aged lesbians make everything better. 

Just catching up as well...so let me add my welcome to you @AlsBeck Luhhan. I'm also very new here and learning my way around.  

AND a huge fun of the WoT TV show, very excited about upcoming Season 3.

On 2/23/2025 at 6:36 PM, Millon said:

Hmmmm, that’s a tough one. Aside from what I said about the imagery I’m not sure how much that isn’t production or direction. This show had a bigger budget than GoT, right?

Sorta. 

Season 1 had a "Bloated" Budget compared to Seasons 2 & 3, because of 

1) Covid

2) They had to create their own studio, because all the other studios were booked. They bought a massive complex over in Prague, and called it Jordan Studios.

3) VHX costs have increased due to Demand. Which further bloats costs compared GoT. HBO, Disney, and other Major studios also have major leverage/control over VHX studios and basically get "First Dibs" on their projects, which pushes other shows behind. Then there's issues with tons of VHX studios going bankrupt. A lot of it has to do with these same networks just... not paying them, purposely to drive them out of business to delay their competitors film. All of this just further drives up the Demand (cost) for VHX work, screws there competitors, and the viewers over as we have to wait 18-24 months for a season now instead of a year.

 

For comparison, Season 1 of House of Dragon (2022) cost nearly $200M to make compared to WoT's $139M Budget for S1 in 2021.

So HoD had nearly a $20M per episode budget compared to WoT's $17M per episode. WoT has also had a smaller budget in Season 2 (124M S2, $15.5M per ep) but also had the writers strike.

Not sure how this comparison doesn’t reinforce my point. You say the original series’ had a lower budget compared to WoT due to xyz. As in, the lower budget show presented a better product compared to the higher budget series. Just backs up my point. 

On 3/14/2025 at 10:23 PM, Millon said:

Not sure how this comparison doesn’t reinforce my point. You say the original series’ had a lower budget compared to WoT due to xyz. As in, the lower budget show presented a better product compared to the higher budget series. Just backs up my point. 

If you compare House of Dragons to WoT, (which I've shown above), you can see how modern costs have been vastly inflated compared to a similar product that was put out a decade ago.

 

VHX costs have soared massively, and a huge part of that is because of Supply and Demand.  It's just one of a multitude of reasons why Amazon takes 18+ months to put out a new season of a show.

 

Disney, HBO, and all the other Movie Studios have flooded the VHX studios with soo much work they literally cannot keep up. In the case of Disney and a few others, they literally own their own VHX studios allowing them to effectively "cut the line" for their own Movies and TV Shows.

 

This leaves shows like WoT having to compete with all the other shows for a VHX spot, (hence the constantly inflating VHX budget) to get any special effects done, and even though WoT is produced by Sony and Amazon MGM, their producers are more worried about about getting their billion dollar box office films to market over this TV show.

 

So while we can all go "this show has a huge budget!" most of that is spent on VHX, which we knew this show was going to need a heavy VHX budget, and a Heavy Costume Budget... and a heavy set design budget... and the list goes on. 

 

So unless they're given the LotR Budget (which would be bloody amazing), I believe they're stretching what they can do, and probably bursting at the seems already... and they'd need an almost unlimited budget in order to do everything justice... if that makes sense? Specially with the cost of VHX today.

 

Also, take into consideration how much Avatar 2 cost, and how long that took to make.