7 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

 Based on what we have seen of Liandrin so far in the series, I completely believe she is petty and arrogant enough to slow roll a kill and use Alanna's warders own sword to kill her.

 

I did notice the healing thing. There is no way she should have been able to channel in the Hall after being healed, and definitely not after it happens again in the street.

They are certainly playing loose with the rules for Healing.  But even in season 1 with Moiraine on deaths door she was healed and immediately decided to spend the day maintaining a shield on Logain.  So they are keeping consistency.

 

But also it works well for TV if you have the ability to Heal you want to "abuse" for the fight scenes.  But I will also say that both times Liandrin got really injured and bounced right back she was healed by a Yellow.

 

Actually it might be interesting to track whom healed who and what there recovery times were like.  Moiraine was healed by Kerene but it could stand to reason that Greens learn more healing than most.  Moiraine and Lan were healed in season 2 by Verin or Adelalas but both are browns, possibly both are poor healers. Moiraine herself always seemed to know healing than other non-yellow sisters.

 

As for Ihvon not getting healed he was dead before Alanna came to, simple as that.

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

But why did the blacks not raise a shield when they saw her. The shields block both channeled and physical attacks. Why did they just stand there and wait for her to attack first.

Because they are arrogant.  They just bested higher numbers in the Hall of Sitters.  They don't think a single Aes Sedai and 2 warders are a threat.  They give it a stand off and either allow Alanna the first attack or Alanna was just faster.

 

Oh no, Aes Sedai being over confidant, how can this be.  Same could be said of Alanna, she could of tracked them, sent her signal and wait for backup.

 

Agreed on the Jump cuts.

Edited March 9Mar 9 by Skipp

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

Because they are arrogant.  They just bested higher numbers in the Hall of Sitters.  They don't think a single Aes Sedai and 2 warders are a threat.  They give it a stand off and either allow Alanna the first attack or Alanna was just faster.

 

Oh no, Aes Sedai being over confidant, how can this be.  Same could be said of Alanna, she could of tracked them, sent her signal and wait for backup.

 

Agreed on the Jump cuts.

Just last week people were arguing the exact opposite argument in favour of why the blacks beat the Hall.

 

It's not a question of speed both sides clearly saw each other before attacking and we saw clear evidence of blacks insta casting shields in the Hall. And the blacks are in a rush to escape before they are overwhelmed by loyal Aes Sedai so why would they possibly hesitate, and how on earth would you not think a member of the battle ajah was no danger to you.

13 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Agreed on the Jump cuts.

Jump cuts and dark screens make following modern action sequences an absolute nightmare I know it saves on budget but a lot of the time it's near impossible to actually tell what the hell is going on.

On 3/8/2025 at 3:15 PM, A Memory Of Why said:

Bubble of evil was awesome 😃/ except it was just Lanfear 🙃

/ Dreamshards?

 

E.g. remember when Rand was facing off against Ishamael inside the Stone of Tear? All those weird other worldy things he kept throwing at Rand? Ishamael was jumping in and out of Dreamshards in an attempt to Kill Rand.

 

"The Axe", "the Mirror", and "the Playing cards", are "Bubbles of Evil" in the book, similar with Nynaeve encountering a Gray Man (minus the stabbing part). These are all definitely nods towards the books. 

 

So we may not get random Bubbles of Evil through out the series, but a more targeted version in the form of Dreamshards. 

30 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Just last week people were arguing the exact opposite argument in favour of why the blacks beat the Hall.

 

It's not a question of speed both sides clearly saw each other before attacking and we saw clear evidence of blacks insta casting shields in the Hall. And the blacks are in a rush to escape before they are overwhelmed by loyal Aes Sedai so why would they possibly hesitate, and how on earth would you not think a member of the battle ajah was no danger to you.

The Hall attack was about surprise.  The majority of the sitters were not prepared and didn't have time to comprehend what was happening before it was over.  Alanna was one of the few who was not caught off guard, possibly because she was aware of Suian's plan.

 

The stand off in the street is entirely different.

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

/ Dreamshards?

 

E.g. remember when Rand was facing off against Ishamael inside the Stone of Tear? All those weird other worldy things he kept throwing at Rand? Ishamael was jumping in and out of Dreamshards in an attempt to Kill Rand.

 

"The Axe", "the Mirror", and "the Playing cards", are "Bubbles of Evil" in the book, similar with Nynaeve encountering a Gray Man (minus the stabbing part). These are all definitely nods towards the books. 

 

So we may not get random Bubbles of Evil through out the series, but a more targeted version in the form of Dreamshards. 

I thought it was just the world of dreams they jumped into. Dreamshards where channelers/dreamers dedicated areas I think.

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

/ Dreamshards?

 

E.g. remember when Rand was facing off against Ishamael inside the Stone of Tear? All those weird other worldy things he kept throwing at Rand? Ishamael was jumping in and out of Dreamshards in an attempt to Kill Rand.

 

"The Axe", "the Mirror", and "the Playing cards", are "Bubbles of Evil" in the book, similar with Nynaeve encountering a Gray Man (minus the stabbing part). These are all definitely nods towards the books. 

 

So we may not get random Bubbles of Evil through out the series, but a more targeted version in the form of Dreamshards. 

 

I thought the entire "Bubble of Evil" scene in the show to be incredibly well shot.  The fact that it was just Lanfear manipulating the events is a neutral thing to me. 

 

Bubbles of Evil in the book were always neat in the books but never really made sense.  It seems RJ wanted some more fantastical events to take place and so he did and it worked..  But despite being introduced early  they rarely come up and is not something that really needs to be explained in the show.  I am completely fine with the Bubbles of Evil being True power shenanigans if they continue to be just as well shot.

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The Hall attack was about surprise.  The majority of the sitters were not prepared and didn't have time to comprehend what was happening before it was over.  Alanna was one of the few who was not caught off guard, possibly because she was aware of Suian's plan.

 

The stand off in the street is entirely different.

People where arguing that the blacks had more training and were more prepared and ruthless and that was why they won, and now you seem to be suggesting they lost because they were arrogant and caught by suprise.

Also, I feel it needs to be said, because I feel it should be obvious.

 

The Black Ajah didn't execute every single person in the hall, because they want them alive.

 

They want to install Elaida as the new Amyrlin, and the ultimate plan is to forcably convert as many Aes Sedai, Accepted, and Novices to the Shadow as possible.... Just like Taim did in the Black Tower. 

If they just executed the entire power structure, they're just killing the most powerful Aes Sedai in the tower. They want to turn them to the shadow.

2 minutes ago, Mailman said:

I thought it was just the world of dreams they jumped into. Dreamshards where channelers/dreamers dedicated areas I think.

We find out later in the series that Ishamael specialized in creating Dreamshards.

Which is why Rand would jump from a world of Lava... to a world of Water...

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

We find out later in the series that Ishamael specialized in creating Dreamshards.

Which is why Rand would jump from a world of Lava... to a world of Water...

I know we find out later that Ishy specialized in dreamshards but i still thought that Rand was basically correcting things in the world of dreams that Ishy was changing to try and stop him.

 

I don't remember that fight ever specifically been confirmed either way that it was a shard or the world of dreams. I just always assumed world of dreams. I thought it was always a chase down the corridors of the stone with suddenly lava filling the corridor or water or pressure suddenly filling that environment.

Edited March 10Mar 10 by Mailman

41 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Also, I feel it needs to be said, because I feel it should be obvious.

 

The Black Ajah didn't execute every single person in the hall, because they want them alive.

 

They want to install Elaida as the new Amyrlin, and the ultimate plan is to forcably convert as many Aes Sedai, Accepted, and Novices to the Shadow as possible.... Just like Taim did in the Black Tower. 

If they just executed the entire power structure, they're just killing the most powerful Aes Sedai in the tower. They want to turn them to the shadow.

 

I also think that killing them is counter intuitive to their plan of sowing discord.  You wipe out the entire power structure of the tower, Sitters and Amrylin, you force the remaining Aes Sedai to band together and fix the issue.  You leave the power structure alive and wounded and the remaining Aes Sedai will argue where to place the blame and nothing gets done.

 

41 minutes ago, Mailman said:

People where arguing that the blacks had more training and were more prepared and ruthless and that was why they won, and now you seem to be suggesting they lost because they were arrogant and caught by suprise.

 

Yes, it is reasonable that the BA has more combat weave experience in general.  We saw at least 2 weaves that no other Aes Sedai used.  But you cannot discount the advantage of surprise that they had during that fight.  Between those 2 factors they were able to defeat a larger force before they had time to counter, there is no denying that.

 

But that doesn't mean they can't make mistakes themselves.  They successfully fought off the Hall and were escaping.  A single Aes Sedai and her 2 warders blocks their exit.  Do you think they are taking her seriously or do you think that just maybe they think there is no way 1 channeler is going to stop all 6 of them...... The arrogance.

 

Keep in mind, the one BA they manage to kill in the Hall fight is the one they got into melee range of.  Liandrin even talked about it in season 2 about how they could make swords of air but that it was beneath them(my exaggeration) because of everything else they could do. So yes, I think the surprise of Alanna charging them caught them off guard.

Edited March 10Mar 10 by Skipp
spelling

32 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

 

But that doesn't mean they can't make mistakes themselves.  They successfully fought off the Hall and were escaping.  A single Aes Sedai and her 2 warders blocks their exit.  Do you think they are taking her seriously or do you think that just maybe they think there is no way 1 channeler is going to stop all 6 of them...... The arrogance.

 

 

Theres's arrogance and then there is suicide. It's the same as 6 men vs a crossbowman at 50m you might be confident to the point of arrogance that you are going to beat him but to choose not to put up a shield because of that is suicidal. 

 

They are trained channelers one of them from the green/black so almost certainly has the same training as Alanna to not consider her a threat is just mad. Also surely the main goal is to escape ASAP why delay neutralizing her any longer than necessary.

 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

we saw clear evidence of blacks insta casting shields

Alanna’s attack went under the ground. How would they “shield” that? 

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

Alanna’s attack went under the ground. How would they “shield” that? 

Put up a shield in front of them to stop all the debris and if Alanna can channel under the ground what is stopping them doing the same.

 

If Alannas underground attack is unblockable why did she not use it in the Hall fight?

Edited March 10Mar 10 by Mailman

28 minutes ago, Mailman said:

 

If Alannas underground attack is unblockable why did she not use it in the Hall fight?

Perhaps there are floors beneath the Hall? I thought you were super logical about these things?

26 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Perhaps there are floors beneath the Hall? I thought you were super logical about these things?

So you what if there are floors beneath the Hall how does that stop her exploding the stones under the blacks feet and is actually an advantage if the stones crack and drop them through they are going to take fall damage and be hit by stones.

 

Surely the primary aim is to stop them killing your fellow sisters.

 

Edited March 10Mar 10 by Mailman

1 minute ago, Mailman said:

actually an advantage if the stones crack and drop them through they are going to take fall damage and by hit be stones.

Right. Except that you would potentially damage the structural integrity of the entire floor and take fall damage yourself. 

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Right. Except that you would potentially damage the structural integrity of the entire floor and take fall damage yourself. 

So what you have healers that can fix you up as seen in the show and you stop the blacks from killing quickly. It's highly doubtful that if she used the exact same attack that a narrow line would cause the entire floor to collapse. It's certainly a better option than watching your sisters gets killed and watching the blacks escape.

 

And you didnt answer why the blacks couldnt channel into the ground in the same way to block it.

 

Edited March 10Mar 10 by Mailman

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

It's highly doubtful that if she used the exact same attack that a narrow line would cause the entire floor to collapse.

How on earth would you know that? Are you a master of fantasy architecture too? And would you be keen to destroy your home? Would that be your first thought?

 

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

And you didnt answer why the blacks couldnt channel into the ground in the same way to block it.

Maybe they didn’t understand what exactly she was doing. Maybe none of them are good with Earth. Maybe the underestimated how fast she could do it.
 

Or maybe it was just a fun little television scene that we don’t need to analyze like it’s some sort of calculus problem.
 

This kind of nitpickery absolutely exhausts me. 

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

How on earth would you know that? Are you a master of fantasy architecture too? And would you be keen to destroy your home? Would that be your first thought?

 

Maybe they didn’t understand what exactly she was doing. Maybe none of them are good with Earth. Maybe the underestimated how fast she could do it.
 

Or maybe it was just a fun little television scene that we don’t need to analyze like it’s some sort of calculus problem.
 

This kind of nitpickery absolutely exhausts me. 

To save my family and friends lives would i destroy my home, in an absolute heartbeat especially when those I am attacking are the absolute worst of the possible worst.

 

This total and absolute apologist line you are taking exhausts me.

 

And again we come back to the characters competence or lack thereof being the plaything of the writers to fix the situations they have placed them in.

Edited March 10Mar 10 by Mailman

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

I know we find out later that Ishy specialized in dreamshards but i still thought that Rand was basically correcting things in the world of dreams that Ishy was changing to try and stop him.

 

I don't remember that fight ever specifically been confirmed either way that it was a shard or the world of dreams. I just always assumed world of dreams. I thought it was always a chase down the corridors of the stone with suddenly lava filling the corridor or water or pressure suddenly filling that environment.

In the Dragon Reborn, that entire sequence is like one giant fever dream of events with Rand chasing Ishamael through waygates without knowing what he was doing, or where / how he was doing it. 

It was never really explained where or how he was going to the places he was going, and Dreamshards are very much related to TAR. They're effectively pocket dimensions.

 

Here's a "quote" pulled from the wot wikia talking about some of the things Moridin (aka ishy) does with them.

Quote

He also spent much of his leisure time in very subtly twisted Dreamshards. His favorite settings appeared to be realistic places that contained warped or impossible elements. His typical setting involved sitting alone in front of a fireplace that radiated no heat, with disturbingly human-shaped flames and clouds bursting and contorting, and burning rats behind the fireplace. Others involved places like a platform floating on endless water with people chained under the waves, perpetually drowning and being eaten by giant, unseen predators.

 

So why jump to random places in TAR and create these effects, when he has access to all these Dreamshards that he can just... Jump into?

 

As far as how that works in the show?

I think they're taking the idea of "bubbles of evil" which are already eerily similar to nightmares in TAR, combining it with Dreamshards, merging them, and allowing these to cross into reality via waygates / true power. Because "plot" reasons.

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

I also think that killing them is counter intuitive to their plan of sowing discord.  You wipe out the entire power structure of the tower, Sitters and Amrylin, you force the remaining Aes Sedai to band together and fix the issue.  You leave the power structure alive and wounded and the remaining Aes Sedai will argue where to place the blame and nothing gets done.

100% this. If they keep the idea that the BA works in different cells (I forget the words they actually use), then their other sisters could further the discord in the tower... Which is precisely what they did... But also, that escape got someone severely punished.

 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Theres's arrogance and then there is suicide. It's the same as 6 men vs a crossbowman at 50m you might be confident to the point of arrogance that you are going to beat him but to choose not to put up a shield because of that is suicidal. 

Did we read the same books?

Aes Sedai are Arrogant.

 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

If Alannas underground attack is unblockable why did she not use it in the Hall fight?

The 3rd oath prevents her from harming the other sisters in the hall that aren't attempting to harm her.

She cannot do this without breaking the 3rd oath.

12 minutes ago, Mailman said:

To save my family and friends lives would i destroy my home, in an absolute heartbeat especially when those I am attacking are the absolute worst of the possible worst.

The 3 oaths do not care about this.

 

  

12 minutes ago, Mailman said:

This total and absolute apologist line you are taking exhausts me.

 

And again we come back to the characters competence or lack thereof being the plaything of the writers to fix the situations they have placed them in.

Maybe you need to take a breather? Why do you care so much what others think about the show? Why do others have to hate it to make you happy?

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Mailman said:

This total and absolute apologist line you are taking exhausts me.

Literally a few hours ago you were praising me for not being an apologist. 

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

The 3rd oath prevents her from harming the other sisters in the hall that aren't attempting to harm her.

She

cannot do this without breaking the 3rd oath.

The 3 oaths do not care about this.

 

She is not attempting to destroy the entire room if every single action an Aes Sedai takes has to take in every single possible thing that could possibly happen as a result then they could never do anything.

 

How could Moiraine throw the large stones at the trollocs in the 2 rivers what if the trolloc or stone happens to impact an innocent? What if there were people hiding in the Inn and she killed them with pulling it down?( a fairly reasonable assumption if you ask me)

How could Moiraine attack the Seachan ships?

How could Moiraine sink the ferry when the ferryman tried to save it.

 

How would the 3 oaths prevent them from attacking Black sisters threatening the lives of fellow sisters. Unless you are arguing that you can never attack the black ajah? 

 

Edited March 10Mar 10 by Mailman