48 minutes ago, Mailman said:

What world are you actually living in? The odds that you could kill 30 people in any community on earth and nobody would care is 0%.

You obviously have no idea what is happening in places like Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Afghanistan and other failed states. Militants will wipe out entire villages. Massacre churches full of people. Is anyone stopping them? Where are the 'mobs' of people demanding justice in those cases?

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

The ownership of the house or the shady nature of the location is not going to matter to a son, daughter father or mother of one of the attendees. Are all of you telling me that if your son, daughter, mother or father suddenly disappeared that you would not care at all just because it was a shady part of town.

 

Dude, I would have been at the wedding, lookin all dapper and sh*t 😎

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

You obviously have no idea what is happening in places like Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Afghanistan and other failed states. Militants will wipe out entire villages. Massacre churches full of people. Is anyone stopping them? Where are the 'mobs' of people demanding justice in those cases?

For me it's more of killing that many people tends to draw notice for people who are trying to lay low, if you're there to look for something it just seems like trying to cover up 40 murders might not be the smartest thing. Not to mention it was clearly a nod to GOT.

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Sabio

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

tends to draw notice for people who are trying to lay low

although it could be a good move for someone deliberately baiting a trap...

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

You obviously have no idea what is happening in places like Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Afghanistan and other failed states. Militants will wipe out entire villages. Massacre churches full of people. Is anyone stopping them? Where are the 'mobs' of people demanding justice in those cases?

So many issues to get through here.

 

Firstly the examples you are using are ethnic cleansing by military groups. If you massacre the entire town no one in the town will be care about what happened because they are dead. And do you seriously think that no who was a relative or friend or even a poster on a fantasy forum would not care that it had happened? Can they necessarily do something about it maybe not?

 

Do you seriously think that in a community were militants have killed 30 people in a church that a significant portion of the remaining community does not care. Bullshit. Maybe they don't have the arms or forces to deal with it but they bloody well care about it.

 

If the community around the wedding house does not know the sisters are Aes Sedai, which I am assuming you believe, then they would have no hesitation in going after them as they would assume that mass numbers vs 7 women would be an easy prospect. If they know they are Aes Sedai I don't think any ruler in randland would allow the murder of 30 members of their country without at least sending a message to the Amiryln at the least or even possibly sending in the army to capture or kill them or force them to leave.

 

Emonds field roused a mob to get rid of Moiraine despite the fact she had helped them and you think it ridiculous that something similar could occur after 30 deaths. Come on man.

 

Again there is no community on this planet where you could kill 30 people and no would care about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Mailman

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Do you seriously think that in a community were militants have killed 30 people in a church that a significant portion of the remaining community does not care.

 

Wait, there aren't churches in this world are there, that's Liandrins family home right?

 

Anywho if we're gunna nitpick and speculate on these issues i think it's just as likely as you're reasoning to suggest that in the slums of a dangerous city, maybe they did notice.. and maybe they only cared about taking advantage of the situation - e.g. Bobs more concerned about stealing their clientele and raiding their houses than what the witches have supposedly done.?

 

Pulling from the books makes a bit more sense:

 

Spoiler

Tanchico was already a dangerous city that is more dangerous..

 

Not everyone thinks highly of AS, some people have outlandish notions and are quite scared. So if a sister said it's none of their business or they deserved it i can see people not wanting to get involved.

 

Currently there are whitecloaks occupying the city causing drama, lead by a darkfriend.

 

The Blacks take over the palace and torture one of their leaders.

 

Moggy..

 

I feel like they dont need all of these points for it to work, so maybe this is a WAFO situation yeah?

1 hour ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Wait, there aren't churches in this world are there, that's Liandrins family home right?

 

Anywho if we're gunna nitpick and speculate on these issues i think it's just as likely as you're reasoning to suggest that in the slums of a dangerous city, maybe they did notice.. and maybe they only cared about taking advantage of the situation - e.g. Bobs more concerned about stealing their clientele and raiding their houses than what the witches have supposedly done.?

 

Pulling from the books makes a bit more sense:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Tanchico was already a dangerous city that is more dangerous..

 

Not everyone thinks highly of AS, some people have outlandish notions and are quite scared. So if a sister said it's none of their business or they deserved it i can see people not wanting to get involved.

 

Currently there are whitecloaks occupying the city causing drama, lead by a darkfriend.

 

The Blacks take over the palace and torture one of their leaders.

 

Moggy..

 

I feel like they dont need all of these points for it to work, so maybe this is a WAFO situation yeah?

I was responding specifically to elders post as you can see it quoted. He was taking about churches in our world as was I. On this note the blacks have almost certainly killed the local marriage celebrant which is probably a priest or someone of local significance, usually someone of some importance and that will be missed.

 

You think whitecloaks occupying the city is going to make it less likely for a mob to take retribution on a small group of women? Well maybe in this world where they recommend Aes Sedai healing it might. Or is it likely that people would run and tell said whitecloaks. 

 

The blacks took over a palace they did not kill everyone including people who did not reside in the palace. They kept the owner under their thumb and visible so not missing and they then became guests. What i would describe as a good hiding place.

 

But no the showrunners wanted their own GoT wedding slaughter. And a humanising moment for Liandrin saving the girl no matter that she killed many other women who could possibly be in the same situations.

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Mailman

30 minutes ago, Mailman said:

I was responding specifically to elders post as you can see it quoted. He was taking about churches in our world as was I. On this note the blacks have almost certainly killed the local marriage celebrant which is probably a priest or someone of local significance, usually someone of some importance and that will be missed.

 

You think whitecloaks occupying the city is going to make it less likely for a mob to take retribution on a small group of women? Well maybe in this world where they recommend Aes Sedai healing it might. Or is it likely that people would run and tell said whitecloaks. 

 

The blacks took over a palace they did not kill everyone including people who did not reside in the palace. They kept the owner under their thumb and visible so not missing and they then became guests. What i would describe as a good hiding place.

 

But no the showrunners wanted their own GoT wedding slaughter. And a humanising moment for Liandrin saving the girl no matter that she killed many other women who could possibly be in the same situations.

 

You're glossing over my points dude..

 

But eh, let's assume they're following the books; there's currently civil unrest that turns into a riot..

 

Maybe you're onto something?

 

How unhappy would you be if your arguments are what / part of what leads to the riots?

 

P.s. can we move on from GoT please, sureley its been long enough?

 

So because a fantasy series does something graphic, horrible or edgy its always compared and found to be derivative? GoT doesn't own that.

 

Be honest, if GoT didn't exist you'd still have a problem with this scene. 

3 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

You're glossing over my points dude..

 

But eh, let's assume they're following the books; there's currently civil unrest that turns into a riot..

 

Maybe you're onto something?

 

How unhappy would you be if your arguments are what / part of what leads to the riots?

 

P.s. can we move on from GoT please, sureley its been long enough?

 

So because a fantasy series does something graphic, horrible or edgy its always compared and found to be derivative? GoT doesn't own that.

 

Be honest, if GoT didn't exist you'd still have a problem with this scene. 

I did not gloss over your points i have already addressed them or addressed them in my response.

 

If it leads to the riots it still makes the blacks stupid and careless and yes for this reason if we did not have GoT then I would still have a problem with this scene.

 

If the scene made sense within the show even if it was a beat for beat theft from GoT I would have less problems with it.

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Mailman

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

So many issues to get through here.

 

Firstly the examples you are using are ethnic cleansing by military groups. If you massacre the entire town no one in the town will be care about what happened because they are dead. And do you seriously think that no who was a relative or friend or even a poster on a fantasy forum would not care that it had happened? Can they necessarily do something about it maybe not?

 

Do you seriously think that in a community were militants have killed 30 people in a church that a significant portion of the remaining community does not care. Bullshit. Maybe they don't have the arms or forces to deal with it but they bloody well care about it.

 

If the community around the wedding house does not know the sisters are Aes Sedai, which I am assuming you believe, then they would have no hesitation in going after them as they would assume that mass numbers vs 7 women would be an easy prospect. If they know they are Aes Sedai I don't think any ruler in randland would allow the murder of 30 members of their country without at least sending a message to the Amiryln at the least or even possibly sending in the army to capture or kill them or force them to leave.

 

Emonds field roused a mob to get rid of Moiraine despite the fact she had helped them and you think it ridiculous that something similar could occur after 30 deaths. Come on man.

 

Again there is no community on this planet where you could kill 30 people and no would care about it.

 

Perhaps look at this in another way. One group of criminals is in control of a neighbourhood. Another stronger group decides they want to control said neighbourhood. They take out the first group in a somwwhat obvious, extremely violent manner. You live in said neighbourhood.  Do you confront the powerful group? Do you ask for government assistance knowing that the group will likely find out you did it? Do you "mind your own business" and hope they don't come after you?

 

The book expressedly singles out Emonds Field as being the remnants of the storied blood of Manetheren, who valiantly fought for their homes. You see most people's reaction to the Seanchan takeover of their nations. They swear the oaths and go on with their lives.

 

I think your average villager in Randland just puts their head down and tries to struggle on. Not everyone is a hero.

10 hours ago, Mailman said:

do you seriously think that no who was a relative or friend or even a poster on a fantasy forum would not care that it had happened?

I see that you are going to deliberately interpret what I said in the most absurd possible way. Of course there are people who would care about missing loved ones.

 

11 hours ago, Mailman said:

the examples you are using are ethnic cleansing by military groups.

So? Is the Black Ajah not a military group?

 

11 hours ago, Mailman said:

they would have no hesitation in going after them as they would assume that mass numbers vs 7 women would be an easy prospect.

Since everyone at the wedding is dead, how would they know that 7 women were responsible for the massacre? Where are they getting their information? And why would they assume that a hastily formed mob would be able to succeed in defeating the unknown force that massacred the wedding?

 

11 hours ago, Mailman said:

Emonds field roused a mob to get rid of Moiraine despite the fact she had helped them

No they didn’t. This is a malicious misreading of the text. The village being distrustful and unwelcoming is not “rousing a mob”. 

 

11 hours ago, Mailman said:

Maybe they don't have the arms or forces to deal with it but they bloody well care about it.

This was my point, obviously. Brazen massacres often go unpunished in our world. There’s no reason they can’t in Tanchico. 
 

 

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

I was responding specifically to elders post as you can see it quoted. He was taking about churches in our world as was I. On this note the blacks have almost certainly killed the local marriage celebrant which is probably a priest or someone of local significance, usually someone of some importance and that will be missed.

 

You think whitecloaks occupying the city is going to make it less likely for a mob to take retribution on a small group of women? Well maybe in this world where they recommend Aes Sedai healing it might. Or is it likely that people would run and tell said whitecloaks. 

 

The blacks took over a palace they did not kill everyone including people who did not reside in the palace. They kept the owner under their thumb and visible so not missing and they then became guests. What i would describe as a good hiding place.

 

But no the showrunners wanted their own GoT wedding slaughter. And a humanising moment for Liandrin saving the girl no matter that she killed many other women who could possibly be in the same situations.

Just a word of advice. Go back and re-read your post as if you reading it out of context.

Sometimes taking that extra step and adding "Ajah" or just changing it to "BA" can go a LONG WAY.

9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I see that you are going to deliberately interpret what I said in the most absurd possible way. Of course there are people who would care about missing loved ones.

 

Exactly. The idea that 30 people could be massacred at a wedding and nobody would care isn’t even far fetched in our real world. 

 

How am I interpreting that incorrectly. They are your exact words. How is my interpretation that you said it is not far fetched that 30 people could be killed in the real world and nobody would care inaccurate or absurd.

 

You want me to reinterpret it to make it something you did not say and not the silly statement you actually made?

 

You made the comment. Your words. Clear. I did not misinterpret it. If you made a mistake in what you wanted to get across that is your problem not mine. To accuse me of the error or deliberate wrongdoing is deceitful.

9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

No they didn’t. This is a malicious misreading of the text. The village being distrustful and unwelcoming is not “rousing a mob”. 

 

A malicious misreading of the text you have to be joking.

36 torch wielding townsfolk gathered together yelling at Moiraine and threatening to burn her out is not a mob. That is a malicious misreading of the text is it. 

 

Take a step back dude and start to examine if your dislike of my criticism of the show has clouded your judgement.

One thing about the wedding that threw me, and yes books and show are different, is I don't think any culture shown in books WoT has that level of gender dichotomy where a man basically owns a woman and child marriage is legal or a norm. Even the cultures mentioned as practicing horrible slavery don't have that particular dichotomy. Though I think we already had this discussion when it was presented as part of Liandrin's backstory. That's very (dare I say it) Games of Thronesy and touching on some contemporary issues. 

10 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Just a word of advice. Go back and re-read your post as if you reading it out of context.

Sometimes taking that extra step and adding "Ajah" or just changing it to "BA" can go a LONG WAY.

I take your point but I feel the context is pretty self-evident in this case with my use of the word black.

 

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

How am I interpreting that incorrectly

By taking the phrase “nobody would care” literally as opposed to the common idiomatic use of that phrase which means that something would fail to arouse a public outcry.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

By taking the phrase “nobody would care” literally as opposed to the common idiomatic use of that phrase which means that something would fail to arouse a public outcry.

What a load of rubbish.

 

No comment on your absurd accusation that I maliciously misrepresented the text of the book. Or is maliciously misread another misunderstood use of language.

Edited March 22Mar 22 by Mailman

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

36 torch wielding townsfolk gathered together yelling at Moiraine and threatening to burn her out is not a mob.

It is a mob. I had forgotten about the threats to burn her out. Mea culpa. 

My remaining points stand. 
 

 

23 minutes ago, Mailman said:

What a load of rubbish.

Are you seriously trying to claim that the phrase “nobody cares” is not commonly used idiomatically? 

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

Are you seriously trying to claim that the phrase “nobody cares” is not commonly used idiomatically? 

Even if I was to agree that your usage of it in this context was a correct one, which I am not, where exactly do you think the public outcry which you referenced would come from but from those closest to the killed.

 

You have then admitted that those people would in fact care. Do you not think the relatives and those closest to 30 dead people would amount to a number that actually constitutes the public.

 

I don't think the words "nobody would care" is inherently associated with a public outcry. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It is a mob. I had forgotten about the threats to burn her out. Mea culpa. 

My remaining points stand. 
 

 

Small appreciation for the apology, only small because you had to be forced.

Even without the threat to burn her it was a mob.

Edited March 22Mar 22 by Mailman

45 minutes ago, Mailman said:

you had to be forced.

Bro, you didn't force me to do anything. 

 

47 minutes ago, Mailman said:

public outcry which you referenced would come from but from those closest to the killed.

You've got to be kidding me. 

 

48 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Do you not think the relatives and those closest to 30 dead people would amount to a number that actually constitutes the public.

No. Because they are poor nobodies in the middle of a failed state. The people that might be upset about it don't know anyone willing to stick their neck out to challenge the village strongman/zealot/warlord/coven of evil witches. Even if they do know someone brave enough to say something, that person will have no power to gather similarly minded people.

 

So no one will say anything. The people who are upset suffer in silence or have their cries fall upon deaf ears. So there is no public outcry. There are no vigilantes. There is no mob. There are only the lonely tears of the isolated survivors. And if you think this very scenario doesn't play itself out on a near daily basis in certain places on this very planet, you are hopelessly naive.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Bro, you didn't force me to do anything. 

 

 

Much like the showrunners you are style over substance.

 

You accused me of maliciously misreading, you then realised you were wrong and decided not to issue a retraction. When I confronted you about this again you provided a deciding lacking apology in the form of mea culpa which would have been fine if it was purely a factual error that had occurred, but you had felt the need to embellish this substantive inaccuracy with the assertion that I was doing it maliciously, your style as it were.

 

And you now claim that you were not forced into that apology despite it only occurring after I confronted you on it a second time.

 

Grow up.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

. 

 

No. Because they are poor nobodies in the middle of a failed state. The people that might be upset about it don't know anyone willing to stick their neck out to challenge the village strongman/zealot/warlord/coven of evil witches. Even if they do know someone brave enough to say something, that person will have no power to gather similarly minded people.

 

 

Despite tales of exactly this type of thing happening in the books in the form of mobs spurred on by fear and hatred attacking people suspected of using the power or being dark friends or the like.

 

Despite the clear example in Emond's field a very stable and controlled village where Moiraine had helped not murdered. 

 

And you still think it impossible.