I do wonder if people who haven't read the books understand the episode and the flashbacks, like the folks who decided to head south instead, and the two continuing on the journey.  There really wasn't a whole lot of explanation as to why that split was a key moment.  Would non book readers have a clue that was the creation of the Tinkers?

 

I am curious why the change to give Moraine the powerful female device.

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Sabio

3 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

I can see why they didn't want Mat there, it's already got a lot going on and having a 3rd pov with something else out of this world could be a bit much, not to mention less time on Rand.

 

He doesn't do much in the waste anywho, other than the Finns and complaining about being there.

 

Regarding the Finns:

 

  Hide contents

Imbd has someone cast as a Finn for one episode 😃

 

I'm still going with my prediction from the trailer that Mat will go through a doorway in Tanchico and pop out in Rhuidean, in time for Rand to lead the Aiel back and find him hanging from the tree.

 

Notice Moraines hat is different in the teaser as they're standing over Rhuidean, I'm thinking that's them coming back.

 

Interestingly, Rhuidean is still foggy.. maybe a different fight will make Rand create the lake?

 

Such a wetlander thing to do.

Yeah I could see them having Mat do that in Tanchico to give him something while Nynaeve/Elayne deal with the black sisters. I hope they still do the doorway because I do like that part and then later in the books. I agree Mat didn't do too much but one part that always resonated with me was when stuff starts to go down and Mat just jumps on the rock and is ready to throw down against an insurmountable amount of Aiel, it was one of the cool Mat really is ride or die moments in the book.

 

With Rhuidean you are right Rand came back in the books and the fog was up so they may still do that and the lake and I hope they do and I think that is the better water part. I was more thinking that part with Mat where he turns on the fountain but it wouldn't have worked as well with Avi unless you had her be insulted and they probably didn't want to go funny. I wonder if they are going to do the merchant caravan they still could and I liked it. I also liked how Rand kept making comments about not trusting them and everyone is like alright Rand sounds good.

 

I ended up watching again and just some unrelated stuff was I loved that they gave Mat's knife scene to Moraine and I liked his incredulous look and then she pulls out another knife. I thought the speech about hiding his face and her Childs face being on a killer was really powerful scene. I didn't catch that the wagon was "futuristic" in the breaking but that was a cool touch. I feel like Latra's necklace may replace the wand as the big bad white tower sa'angreal and I like that as the wand may be a bit too Harry Potter. I don't mind a wand but I could see why they may rather go in a different direction. Looks like they have a gem for each Aja so that's why I was thinking it may be the Amerlyn sa'angreal or maybe that is the one that the wonder girls find but it seemed to have an Aja theme to it. One that I thought was cool was when the child asks his grandfather how they will get over the spine and he says together fits really nicely into some of the things Rand grapples with later. Also really liked Lan's comment about it taking a lot of practice to think about nothing and I liked how they did that whole flame and void part. Overall it is kind of shocking how much they packed into that episode but it felt well paced.

Finished the episode. Still processing.

 

I don't have any issues with deviations from the book this episode. Not sure if there was some awkwardness writing-wise, particularly to the beginning of the episode. 

 

I admittedly did roll my eyes when Avi disarmed Lan (can the legendary warrior catch one break, lol) though I'm not mad about it and I was at least pleased to see what originally struck me as a "pointless fight" turned around to make a point and get Avi called out by the Wise Ones. I should have seen that pivot coming but Avi's plot point here wasn't even in my mind for some reason. 

 

I think it would have been nice to see slightly less Lanfear killing Moiraine and more Rand falling into Lanfear's influence and darkness. 

 

Again, I'm not even mad about these changes. I say "I don't have issues with deviations" then dive into a couple quibbles, but I don't feel "hung up" on them the way I felt about some things in episodes 1 and 2. 

 

The flashbacks I think were well executed. Loved seeing Josha adopt all these different characters. And I think the way they presented Moiraine's own visions in a montage of "turnings" was good. 

16 hours ago, zacz1987 said:

There should have been a huge number of Jenn Aiel which dwindled over time so the size of the camp should increase as they go back in time, not decrease.

 

There was an opportunity for one more vision which illustrated that but I'll give the writers and directors a pass due to time constraints.

So the first thought I had after watching this is that if this episode does not hook the audience long term, the show is doomed. In terms of capturing the essence of the Wheel of Time, this episode was its Red Wedding - a wonderful 1 episode of everything WoT has to offer.  In a show that has cut maybe a book's worth of content so far, and covered 2,000 pages of story in 19 episodes, we got a whole episode dedicated to about 50 pure pages (2 1/2 uninterrupted chapters)

 

Prior to the trip, we got so many small things - the Shaido introduction, The Flame and The Void, intro to dreamwalking, foretelling, Wise Women channeling, Rand's lineage - that speak to both him, and the world,

 

And then with the trip, aside from 4 very small changes (Lan vs Avi; the time alignment of the 3 going to Rhuidean instead of spread out; finding the Sarkanen instead of the Choedan Kal key, Visuals for Moiraine instead of her spoken summary) and a bunch of pure excisions (Mat's presence, millions of people during and after the Breaking, the water gift, the Ogier, etc.) this has got to be the single most faithful episode they've done. - dialogue matched, visions matched. 

 

It really effectively showed that the Aiel are not the Fremen, coming from a different place, and driven by different things; both with the Shaido conflict, and the visions. 

 

Most importantly though, it demonstrated Josha's range as an actor, and showed that he can play the emotional range he's going to need for the rest of the series.

 

While it is nowhere near my favourite part of the series, everyone speaks to The Shadow Rising as the heart of the series, and these chapters are the heart of that book. So here we are. Embrace it or not.

 

And while I know I'm gushing about this, I also know

Spoiler

every change Judkins makes going forward is going to piss me off even more, because he just showed he doesn't need to. Change for medium, change for run time, change for series length, but don't change because you think you can do better - he just showed he doesn't believe that

 

14 hours ago, Mirefox said:

That was a good episode.  I am curious, though, how it is received by non-book readers.  Even in the book the time jumps took a little effort to follow at first.

 

I still wish they’d clean up some of the unforced errors.  For example, why was Janduin fighting and killing without a veil?  They then make the point of explaining veils later in the episode.  Why explain lore and worldbuild but then break your own rules?

I noticed that, it was a HUGE mistake. This show has a lot of potential but they keep making significant errors that kind of ruin it. 

5 minutes ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

I noticed that, it was a HUGE mistake. This show has a lot of potential but they keep making significant errors that kind of ruin it. 

Superheroes keep losing their masks, too...it's a Hollywood trope, or a contract obligation, or a lack of faith that audiences can't tell people without seeing their faces. Either way, this fits into the "hate it, but let it go" category for me

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

Finished the episode. Still processing.

 

I don't have any issues with deviations from the book this episode. Not sure if there was some awkwardness writing-wise, particularly to the beginning of the episode. 

 

I admittedly did roll my eyes when Avi disarmed Lan (can the legendary warrior catch one break, lol) though I'm not mad about it and I was at least pleased to see what originally struck me as a "pointless fight" turned around to make a point and get Avi called out by the Wise Ones. I should have seen that pivot coming but Avi's plot point here wasn't even in my mind for some reason. 

 

I think it would have been nice to see slightly less Lanfear killing Moiraine and more Rand falling into Lanfear's influence and darkness. 

 

Again, I'm not even mad about these changes. I say "I don't have issues with deviations" then dive into a couple quibbles, but I don't feel "hung up" on them the way I felt about some things in episodes 1 and 2. 

 

The flashbacks I think were well executed. Loved seeing Josha adopt all these different characters. And I think the way they presented Moiraine's own visions in a montage of "turnings" was good. 

I thought the same thing, Avi is good but Lan has fought Aiel before and unless he was holding back, he should've been able to beat Avi without looking foolish.  But they really haven't shown Lan to be one of the best swordsman around.   I do like how surprised Avi was that Lan was wanting to fight her and Avi getting called out to be a Wiseone.

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Sabio

Speaking of things I hate, but can't let go - I have a question:

 

Spoiler

is Rand carrying Moiraine out of Rhuidean the first time in the TV series that any man has been shown to be flat out tougher / stronger than any woman? Let alone Superwoman? If so, that adds a helluva lot more meta context to the episode that I'll need to think about

 

3 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Superheroes keep losing their masks, too...it's a Hollywood trope, or a contract obligation, or a lack of faith that audiences can't tell people without seeing their faces. Either way, this fits into the "hate it, but let it go" category for me

It doesn't ruin things for me but it's these simple things that make the show look sloppy at times.  Still doesn't compare to them messing up Mats dagger from the last episode of season 1 to what it does in season 2.

Can somebody explain 3/4 of Rand's story this episode, please? Because I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I thought the same thing, Avi is good but Lan has fought Aiel before and unless he was holding back, he should've been able to beat Avi without looking foolish.  But they really haven't shown Lan to be one of the best swordsman around.   I do like how surprised Avi was that Lan was wanting to fight her and Avi getting called out to be a Wiseone.

Lan had a smile on his face.

I don't think he was fighting for realsies. He was humouring her, to an extent. That's how I saw it.

What an excellent episode.

 

I honestly can't believe I'm saying this... I'm really enjoying the Wheel of Time TV show!

 

If you'd asked me that after Season 1 or 2, I would have thought you were crazy.

 

For years, the images of this event - Rand going through the columns in Rhuidean - has been locked in my imagination. And while it isn't EXACTLY as I imagined it, it's still so exciting to see it brought to life on screen.

 

As someone above mentioned, when the showrunners just TRUST the source material, it works.

 

This episode definitely pushed Josha further as an actor than any of the rest of the show, and I think he mostly delivered. (I couldn't really buy him as an old man... 😅) Must have been fun developing all of the different characters.

 

Did anyone else get goosebumps with the opening of the bore scene? I WANT MORE!! I want to see so much more of the Age of Legends! Since it was never directly shown in the books, I feel like THIS is the part of the story the showrunners could really develop and show us something really new and exciting. Makes me wonder if one day we'll ever get the Book 1 prologue scene.

 

This show is going from strength to strength this season. Let's hope they can keep up the momentum!

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Can somebody explain 3/4 of Rand's story this episode, please? Because I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

In short 

Spoiler

1. Aiel as we know them now are warrior culture. The Rhuidean visions show that they were originally Tuatha'an, the pacifist culture. Only the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones know the truth. Other aiel don't.

 

2. We saw the first Tuatha'an take a spear and kill. We also saw how he had to hide his face after that -> current-time-aiel pull up the (black) veil before killing.

 

3. We saw Mierin (Lanfear) create the Bore to Dark One's prison freeing him partly. This eventually leads to the Breaking of the World.

 

Edited March 21Mar 21 by DaddyFinn

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Can somebody explain 3/4 of Rand's story this episode, please? Because I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

 

Rand is seeing visions of his Aiel ancestors, every step further back in time.

 

It's a bit confusing in the books too, it can help to think of the events backward, going forward in time.

 

Keep in mind this happens over roughly 3500 years.

 

In that vein:

 

1:

Spoiler

The Aiel were servents of the the Aes Sedai and followed the way of the leaf. One of Rands ancestors served under Meiren Sedai who would become Lanfear.

 

Note the Aiel sang whilst harvesting?

 

Also note that Meiren Sedai's experiment failed and cracked open the Dark ones "prison".

 

2:

 

Spoiler

This is after the previous Dragon attempted to "cage the shadow" and is known as the breaking of the world. Where all male channellers were going insane and causing world wide catastrophes.

 

The Aes Sedai tasked the Aiel to safeguard precious items, keep moving and find somewhere safe.

 

3:

 

Spoiler

We see a group of Aiel break off and abandon their mission, these would become the tinkers who Perrin and Eggy met in season one.

 

4:

 

Spoiler

Keep in mind that the world is still crazy and the peaceful Aiel are easy pickings.

 

Some young Aiel try to rescue their sisters from Bandits and in turn "accidentally" kill them.

 

They become what the Aiel are now known.

 

In this scene we're shown why the Aiel find they feel they do about swords and why they favour the spear.

 

Also why they veil before fighting..

 

One could argue it's all about hiding their sin, how they broke their oath..

 

5:

 

Spoiler

These new found fierce Aiel go to Rhuidean and meet Latros Sedai (who gave them their mission many years ago), and are told that their leaders must know the truth of their ancestors, why they are oathbreakers.

 

6:

 

Spoiler

That's daddy killing the oathbreaker king that Moraine talked about, and finding his dead wife with a missing baby.

 

There's a bit more to the books but that's the gist of it 😉

Edited March 21Mar 21 by A Memory Of Why

I will split my feeling on this episode into 2 sections

 

The section once they leave for Rhuiedian was excellent. Really enjoyed the vision sequences and it's the by far the best sequence from Josha in the show really felt like he actually had some good character development. The only issues where it felt like there was a fairly dazzling array of accents, and as I have seen mentioned and applies to the entire Aiel arc this season EXTRA's this is an expensive show spring for some bloody extra's to fill out the Aiel scenes. They surely can't cost that much.

 

The section prior to Rhuiedian was the same show I have watched for the last 19 episodes. I am not going to go through everything I am excited that we actually got some genuinely excellent stuff for 40+minutes.

 

Well done show.

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Mailman

4 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Can somebody explain 3/4 of Rand's story this episode, please? Because I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

Spoiler

The other thing that I have not seen mentioned is the Aiel have a very strict honor code and the fact that they have broken their oaths to the Aes Sedai and the way of the leaf is a shame that cuts to the very core of their people, they are basically oath breakers 100 times over.

 

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Can somebody explain 3/4 of Rand's story this episode, please? Because I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

 

Spoiler

One of the things more emphasized in the books at this point is that the Aiel way of life follows two strict tenets. There is honor (ji) and there is obligation (toh).  Any violation, as they see it, of honor creates an obligation to rectify it (this may be an act of penance or some type of duty). They are personally shamed deeply when they see themselves as violating their honor code. 

 

The Columns Rand walks through are a ter'angreal that shows the Aiel visions of their blood ancestors, starting with the more recent and ending with the oldest. Only Aiel men who wish to be clan chiefs or Aiel women wishing to move from Apprentice to Wise One who get approved by the Wise Ones may walk through these columns. 

 

In short, the visions they see depict themselves, their people, their entire way of life as a massive violation of oaths. For a society so bound up in their way of honor and obligation this is incredibly hard to stomach. They see their entire worldview of their people overturned and feel massive shame. In addition to the visions and living various lives being difficult in itself, the shame leads many of those who walk the columns to kill themselves, or never make it through. 

 

Rand's own visions take him backwards through time. In reverse order (vision furthest back in time to most recent):

 

He lives as an ancestor about 3500 years ago who was a servant of an Aes Sedai, Meirin. All Aiel were pacifists, dedicated to the Way of the Leaf, many bound (non-magically) to an Aes Sedai to support them. This was before Warders, but there's a parallel there to an Aes Sedai and her Aiel. Meirin Sedai (who would become Lanfear) was on a research project to unlock a new power which would revolutionize society. As he goes out to work the fields, he sees that research project go awry and create the Bore, a hole in the Pattern, which allows the Dark One to begin to touch the world, and leads to the collapse of civilization. 

 

He lives as an ancestor during the Breaking, before society has completely collapsed, when men who can channel are going mad in droves and ripping apart the world with their power. He is a follower of the Way of the Leaf, a strict non-violent pacifist, as all his people are and have been. On behalf of the Aes Sedai, they vow to keep to the way of the leaf and transport various objects of power (angreal and ter'angreal... admittedly not really seen in the show) to safety. (On the part of the Aes Sedai, they are trying to get the Aiel to run from the major population centers that will get destroyed during the breaking and the final days of the War of the Shadow. This mission is a pre-text for them to get the Aiel away to comparable safety).

 

He lives as an ancestor surviving an attack on his caravan, watching as many of his people abandon their promise/obligation to the Aes Sedai to transport and keep safe a treasure trove of angreal and ter'angreal objects of power (okay the objects of power wasn't really shown in the show). This splinter group that abandons the mission become the Tinkers, who the modern day Aiel outside of the visions despise. 

 

He lives as the first ancestor among the Aiel to violate the Way of the Leaf (an absolute pacifism) to kill another person. He does this to save Aiel captured by brigands. He is made outcast by his people, but vows to follow the peacful Aiel and protect them because they won't protect themselves. (We see in another vision in the books that this group grows over generations.) While they will use violence, one holdover from the Way of the Leaf is a refusal to use swords. Swords are weapons to use against people and weapons only. Spears, axes, and other such things are also tools that have other purposes besides killing people.

 

He lives as an ancient Aiel ancestor agreeing to accept the Aes Sedai requirement that all leaders among the Aiel walk through the glass columns. All the visions up to this point span some hundreds of years, though not too far, I think. 

 

(This next vision was a show addition--I have no complaint about that--and takes place about 20 years ago.) He lives as his father fighting on Dragonmount during the Aiel War about 20 years ago, finding his wife dead.

 

That was the final vision. During this whole sequence of walking through the Columns, Rand sees an Aiel of the Shaido clan also walking through the Columns. This other hopeful wishes to be the Shaido clan chief. He was overwhelmed with the visions and shame and clawed out his own eyes and died within the columns. 

 

There was another vision in the books of the proto-Cairhienin people saving and protecting a caravan of Aiel before they abandoned the way of the leaf. They skipped it in the show, though Moiraine did explain it. Out of thanks those Aiel gave the proto-Cairhienin a cutting of their chora tree, which the Cairhienin kept, and there were special arrangements between the Cairhienin and the Aiel up to when the Cairhienin cut their tree down, leading to the Aiel War 20 years before the show begins. The Chora tree, Avendesora, is pretty much holy to the Aiel. It literally radiates a feeling of peace to those near it. There's more lore I could go into on the tree, but that about covers what went on in the episode. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21Mar 21 by Agitel

Probably the only thing I would have changed is I would not have had Rand looking back at Muridin. The only way is forward by stepping back in time. He could see his face as he drew level and stepped past.

Typing that up, I think they did gloss over a few details that make it a bit harder to follow the significance to the Aiel. And also the trust of objects of power given to the Aiel which forms the basis for the mission. This mostly seems cut by the show and simplified to just the one sa'angreal. 

 

For book readers, this sequence also provides the first glimpse of the Age of Legends, and shows it is a futuristic society with skyscrapers, planes, flying cars, has warriors with weapons that shoot lightninig, etc... Which is a pretty cool revelation to the standard fantasy tropes. 

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Typing that up, I think they did gloss over a few details that make it a bit harder to follow the significance to the Aiel. And also the trust of objects of power given to the Aiel which forms the basis for the mission. This mostly seems cut by the show and simplified to just the one sa'angreal. 

 

For book readers, this sequence also provides the first glimpse of the Age of Legends, and shows it is a futuristic society with skyscrapers, planes, flying cars, has warriors with weapons that shoot lightninig, etc... Which is a pretty cool revelation to the standard fantasy tropes. 

We did get a small glimpse in the LTT and Latra cold open but the outside was pretty brief. 

9 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Typing that up, I think they did gloss over a few details that make it a bit harder to follow the significance to the Aiel. And also the trust of objects of power given to the Aiel which forms the basis for the mission. This mostly seems cut by the show and simplified to just the one sa'angreal. 

 

For book readers, this sequence also provides the first glimpse of the Age of Legends, and shows it is a futuristic society with skyscrapers, planes, flying cars, has warriors with weapons that shoot lightninig, etc... Which is a pretty cool revelation to the standard fantasy tropes. 

We have seen the AoL once before.  I think it was a cold open, but I don’t remember.

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

We have seen the AoL once before.  I think it was a cold open, but I don’t remember.

Yes, we did in season one. 

 

I think my comment there was just about giving another reason why this was a very cool sequence for book readers prior to the show. 

6 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Can somebody explain 3/4 of Rand's story this episode, please? Because I have absolutely no idea what was going on.

This is what I was asking about earlier and it seems that many viewers were a bit confused, so don’t worry, you’re not alone.  As I mentioned, it was confusing for the the first time through the books, too, and I’m not alone, there.  I think they summed it up for you nicely here, but it is essentially a reverse history lesson.

Thanks for the explanations, everybody.

 

What really confused me, if I get right down to it, was the furthest-back thing with the woman who would become Lanfear because at that point, Rand's visions should be of Lews Therin, not an Aiel (unless my understanding of the Metaphysics of Reincarnation is completely wrong, in which case the story has failed the coherency test).