I'm working on my third read-through and i am wondering more and more: Why are Aes Sedai so bloody useless and not caring? Bear with me for a moment:

- Yes, they do like to meddle in the affairs of the world yet they care little for the way it is achieved.

small breakdown per Ajah:

- Grey -> brokering peace and trade treaties and solving lawdisputes

- Red -> protecting people against mad male channelers.

These two are the only ones serving in the world as it seems

- Brown -> Gathering knowledge.... in Tar Valon

- Yellow -> Gathering healing skills... in Tar Valon

- Green -> Preparing for war... in Tar Valon

- Blue -> Trying to influence politics?

- White -> Philosophising in Tar Valon

 

For the common man they really mean nothing at all. Sure, the ability to Heal is superhandy, where it not 2000 miles away...

Why don't they built hospitals in the mayor cities (yellow)? Why not start universities in the mayor cities(white/brown)? Why not actively battle the blight (green)? Why not take an open part in politics or set up a bigger own country (blue) ?

 

So many changes to do much public good...They could build bridges, roads, public buildings, cure diseases, fight evil.... But nope! why leave the comforts of the tower?

Blues get involved in causes not politics...and even though we havent seen more than one significant blue unless you count Siuan, the Blues have done as good as any Ajah has I reckon. Moiraines involvement with Rand-the Dragon Reborn- helped him so much that without her influence people would have manipulated Rand and led him down the wrong paths.

I see your point, but I disagree somewhat. I think the Aes Sedai are serving the world in the best way they know. Granted, there are no universities however it's important to remember that WoT is not our world, not at our time anyway. Who would want to visit the universities? The country bumpkins who can barely read, the farmers having a tough enough time making a living off their barren land? The stuck up nobles too engrossed in gaining power? The Browns gather as much knowledge as they can for the purpose of preserving and understanding it, so that future generations may also learn it, preserve it and pass it on. If no-one had done this in our own history, our knowledge of anything pre-1700s would be virtually non existent because records would not have been kept - no-one would have understood it, and we would not know about it. 

 

I do agree I have often wondered why there arent a couple of hospitals dotted about, but then I guess we get into the whats and why-fors of what being an AS means. Are they AS simply to serve the people on a day to day basis? Or are the AS so as to serve the people in the long-run? When war breaks out (TG), the greens will be there, the Yellows will heal people, the Browns will be able to offer advice, prophecies, insights from their readings, the Greys will attempt to mediate to keep the 'good' side united.

 

I think they're all helping, when you really look at it.

Who would want to visit the universities? The country bumpkins who can barely read, the farmers having a tough enough time making a living off their barren land? The stuck up nobles too engrossed in gaining power?

Rand's academies don't seem to have trouble finding students.

The Browns gather as much knowledge as they can for the purpose of preserving and understanding it, so that future generations may also learn it, preserve it and pass it on. If no-one had done this in our own history, our knowledge of anything pre-1700s would be virtually non existent because records would not have been kept - no-one would have understood it, and we would not know about it.

But, realistically, I can't see too many people lining up library cards in order to visit the Tar Valon library.... What's the point of storing the knowledge when people, especially men, are unlikely to have access to it?

Are they AS simply to serve the people on a day to day basis? Or are the AS so as to serve the people in the long-run? When war breaks out (TG), the greens will be there, the Yellows will heal people, the Browns will be able to offer advice, prophecies, insights from their readings, the Greys will attempt to mediate to keep the 'good' side united

But that's not "the long run," that's another reactionary move to meet a short term problem - TG. What happens when it's over?

Who would want to visit the universities? The country bumpkins who can barely read, the farmers having a tough enough time making a living off their barren land? The stuck up nobles too engrossed in gaining power?

Rand's academies don't seem to have trouble finding students.

Also to me it seemed that Rand's academies where the place where modern inventions are first appearing in Randland. The most obvious is the steamengine, but i think a better plow and a weave-set (weavingmachine? i'm not a native speaker so no clue how such a thing is called) are the more important ones. If i remember my history correct then it was the improved weaveset that sparked off the industrial revolution in England.

 

And the worst thing is the infrastructure... Before we had travelling everyone had to travel bad roads. Why not use the power to build bridges, roads, intersections etc etc... There can be little or no improvement in matters without a proper infrastructure.

 

RJ has written a group that is so involved with the world on a politics level that they really add nothing to the quality of life..

Thus why they are hated. Perhaps.

Actually, I don't think the Aes Sedai are hated because they have no function, but because they channel the One Power and everyone still remembers who broke the world.

Sure it was the male channelers, but everyone views the Aes Sedai with equal parts fear and hate and most times when Aes Sedai had to go outside of Tar Valon they had to conceal who they were.

 

Do you really think that the Aes Sedai would operate openly in cities with that type of mood prevalent throughout the land?  The yellows building hospitals to heal?  The browns universities for centers of learning?  (of course, Andor was the exception before Elaida was kicked out and Rahvin took over). 

For instance, Tear absolutely loathes the Aes Sedai.

There are few places that actually respected Aes Sedai (but also feared them), such as Fal Dara in Shienar. 

Most people hate the Aes Sedai and don't want anything to do with them unless they are forced to and need something only an Aes Sedai could provide.

 

I think they do try to help the best way they can, for the most part.

Yes, they have been so used to manipulating the world for 3,000 years and so a lot of them are a bunch of arrogant uh...witches.LOL. ;D

 

Oh, and about the question why not use the Power to build bridges, roads...we have to remember that the Aes Sedai of this Age are not the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends.

They have forgotten a lot, are not as powerful in the One Power either, and there aren't as many of them either as I remember (in TGR or TDR) it was mentioned a few times the Tower was not filled to capacity.

Plus, I think they have a lot more on their minds than trying to better humanity....something like the Dark One is breaking free, chaos in the land, and oh the fact there are male channelers again are probably distracting them too. :o :D

 

 

Actually, I don't think the Aes Sedai are hated because they have no function, but because they channel the One Power and everyone still remembers who broke the world.

Sure it was the male channelers, but everyone views the Aes Sedai with equal parts fear and hate and most times when Aes Sedai had to go outside of Tar Valon they had to conceal who they were.

 

Do you really think that the Aes Sedai would operate openly in cities with that type of mood prevalent throughout the land?  The yellows building hospitals to heal?  The browns universities for centers of learning?   (of course, Andor was the exception before Elaida was kicked out and Rahvin took over). 

For instance, Tear absolutely loathes the Aes Sedai.

There are few places that actually respected Aes Sedai (but also feared them), such as Fal Dara in Shienar. 

Most people hate the Aes Sedai and don't want anything to do with them unless they are forced to and need something only an Aes Sedai could provide.

Then again: if you want to show people there is nothing to fear: wouldn't that be the best way? I mean, the wise women and the Windfinders are also accountable for the breaking but they hold respected places in society. Showing themselves actively bettering peoples lives would make them more loved i believe.

 

Oh, and about the question why not use the Power to build bridges, roads...we have to remember that the Aes Sedai of this Age are not the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends.

They have forgotten a lot, are not as powerful in the One Power either, and there aren't as many of them either as I remember (in TGR or TDR) it was mentioned a few times the Tower was not filled to capacity.

Plus, I think they have a lot more on their minds than trying to better humanity....something like the Dark One is breaking free, chaos in the land, and oh the fact there are male channelers again are probably distracting them too. :o :D

Noone but Moraine/Siuan and the black sisters knew about the DO breaking free till book 2/3 of the series and only the reds where finding channeling men (and not to succesfully as we know now). So no, i don't think they were very busy :)

The thing that bugs me about Aes Sedai is that the White Tower is divided into factions, each with their own purpose, yet teh Ajahs work too closely together in everything that we see. Why dont the Ajahs act individually?

 

Surely the Brown Ajah should have contacted Rand explaining they have knowledge of the prophecies, which would have helped him out. And why the hell havent any Browns figured out parts of the prophecies, when Noal immediately identifies Mat as the fox that makes the ravens fly?

 

What exactly does the White Ajah do? They follow logic, fine. But what does that mean? Its not as if everyone else does stuff they think is illogic is it? Logic is in the eye of the beholder. So just what is their purpose?

 

Why dont the Yellow Ajah have Aes Sedai roaming around every so often, to see if their Healing abilities are needed? Fair enough, no hospitals-it requires funding and staff that is too much for the Yellows to arrange-but whats the point in specialising in Healing if you only Heal people who come to tar Valon?

 

And the Grey Ajah are meant to be negotiators with people, yet we havent seen a single significant Grey yet, and surely theres loooooaaaads of negotiating that can be done with Rand on behalf of the rulers of Randland, which would mean Rand doesnt lose soldiers taking nations and nations wouldnt lose soldiers when Rand took them.

 

It sounds bad, but the only one that has been doing what theyre there for properly (other than the Blue, Moiraine is a perfect example of a Blue and she didnt need any others to do what she had to) is the Red Ajah. And the Red Ajah has technically lost its purpose now that Saidin has been Cleansed

Who would want to visit the universities? The country bumpkins who can barely read, the farmers having a tough enough time making a living off their barren land? The stuck up nobles too engrossed in gaining power?

Rand's academies don't seem to have trouble finding students.

 

Quite right, and perhaps RJ intentionally didnt have the AS set up academies, or what would be the significance of Rand doing it?

 

 

The Browns gather as much knowledge as they can for the purpose of preserving and understanding it, so that future generations may also learn it, preserve it and pass it on. If no-one had done this in our own history, our knowledge of anything pre-1700s would be virtually non existent because records would not have been kept - no-one would have understood it, and we would not know about it.

But, realistically, I can't see too many people lining up library cards in order to visit the Tar Valon library.... What's the point of storing the knowledge when people, especially men, are unlikely to have access to it?

You've just answered your own argument.

I could start by saying 'why should their sex matter?', but I think that's a different discussion. In my view, when the people who are learning the information, and guarding it are likely to outlive even the most stubborn non-channeling human, I dont think we have to worry about it being lost. I also think that in this day and age, we are obsessed with knowing everything, about everything, whether it concerns us or not. Remember how horrified Rand was when he discovered that Myrdraal weren't just a story to scare children? Imagine what would happen to these people's lives if they were exposed to every bit of information - or even the big bits, that the AS had gathered?

 

Are they AS simply to serve the people on a day to day basis? Or are the AS so as to serve the people in the long-run? When war breaks out (TG), the greens will be there, the Yellows will heal people, the Browns will be able to offer advice, prophecies, insights from their readings, the Greys will attempt to mediate to keep the 'good' side united

But that's not "the long run," that's another reactionary move to meet a short term problem - TG. What happens when it's over?

 

For the purposes of our story, I think TG is 'the long run' enough. For the last 20 years + it's been on the horizon, thus for me, 'the long run'. After TG... who knows? The world will likely bear no resemblance to the one we see today.

 

For the purposes of our story, I think TG is 'the long run' enough. For the last 20 years + it's been on the horizon, thus for me, 'the long run'. After TG... who knows? The world will likely bear no resemblance to the one we see today.

 

Only a handful has known it for that long, the others have known or aknowledged it for 2/3 years during the books at best. Seeing as some live 250/400 years i do think this is quite the short term

so what you're suggesting is that some Aes Sedai only realised 2-3 years ago, that at some point in time the Dragon would be Reborn, and TG would come upon them?

 

Regardless of whether they knew Rand was already alive and kicking, I do not believe that the majority of Aes Sedai didnt even know that one day this century, next, or maybe the one after that, he would appear, and they would need to be ready.

I think the Wise Ones, Windfinders, and Kin are more like the AS of tAoL then the modern AS.  Back then the AS were truly Servants of All.

 

When Lanfear gave her, "No, I'm not Aes Sedai, they serve when they can rule...." speech I had trouble understanding how the AS were not like she said they should be.

 

And when Rand started the Asha'man he thought the biggest mistake the AS did was seperating themselves from the world.

 

I mean, the AS are so shocked by how fast the BT has grown, but between the BT and WT the BT go out and actively recruit.  Even with the age restrictions lowered they still wait for women to come to them.  The one exception to that was when Verrin and Alanna went to TR.

 

Which raises another point with how useless the AS have become, the Trollocs were roaming the Two Rivers by the thousands and Verrin said to Perrin the 2 AS could just "go away."  It seemed to me that fighting the shadowspawn is what the Greens lived for so I couldn't get why Alanna would do that. 

One of the biggest problems with Aes Sedai is the flaming oaths.  Which I might add Egwene realized in one book and then dismissed a few books later.  Everyone knows Aes Sedai can't lie, make a weapon or use the power as a weapon but there are a few problems with that, everyone in the stories knows that while AS can't lie they can make truth dance and slide a Mac Truck's worth of lie's through the gap.  We have seen and I'm sure the common people realize that they can use the power as a weapon, Moiraine and Suian were about to kill Verin, the Reds, presumably none were Black killed Sieren Vyu(sp) etc.

Trakand:  Rand was horrified about Myrdraal because all the stories came down on his head in one night.  Suppose we only went from after the War of the Hundred Years, if Browns set up universities and libraries then, over the course of 1000 years people would learn of Shadowspawn and be wary.

Oh and by the way if Aes Sedai were out in the world they would find more girls and also sooo many sparkers wouldn't die.  No I'm not saying none would die because they couldn't very well set up shop in Amadicia, or Tear until Rand.  The idiots need to get rid of the oaths.

If they hadn't shut themselves away in their White Tower for 3000 years the Views of Amadicia and Tear would be different.

 

As it went until the Seanchan, in Amadicia, if a sparkers started channleing and people found out about it...Well she must be a darkfriend and was hung.

 

I Tear if a sparker starts channleing she was sent to Tar Valon on the next boat heading North.

 

But keep in mind that part of what is now Amadicia was once Mantherene so the law isn't that old.

As much as the oaths may seem useless, perhaps they are the only thing that has kept Randland's channelers from being leashed like in Seanchan. Anyone outside of the Two Rivers (or some isolated place like it) knows that Aes Sedai, while schemers and manipulators, can't harm anyone except in defense of their life, and an Aes Sedai's word is as good as there is. Why do you think there is so much silent opposition to the Children?

The oath to not lie was added 100 years ago (or was it 2000?). If the Aes Sedai had went out and actually moved among the people, helped them, raised a family among them they would have raised respect and knowledge so people wouldn't have feared them (or not as much).

 

I had actually written a similar post a couple years ago but posted that in White Tower org. I got flamed quite a bit though (maybe it was because I said to abolish the Blue Ajah cause they have no "actual" objective).

- Green -> Preparing for war... in Tar Valon

 

I think it's particularly harsh to expect the Greens to go out among the general populace because, despite whatever arguements you can make for Randland being matriarchal, military matters are mostly handled by men. You might say, So?, but the male half of the populace seems to be the half with the least amount of sympathy for the WT. Even in those places where the Aes Sedai are closer to revered and women are generally to be obeyed, it must be a pretty prickly situation when an Aes Sedai gets involved with front-line operations.  It might be a little bit like being in the Secret Service and going into a fight President-first.

 

Then, there's the sticky issue of the Red Ajah.  As was first noted, they are very pro-active in their hunt for male channelers.  Thom's a good window into what it must be like for a lot of people to see someone snuffed like a candle because they're going to be dangerous. All of the Red's victims are male and, no matter where you live or who you are, it has got to be very hard to seperate the Aes Sedia from man-hunting and then to seperate the "good Aes Sedai who aren't really better than anyone else," from "the bad Aes Sedai who aren't really bad but perform a neccessary function."

 

Plus, hey, 'Hurry up and wait,' is an old military joke, anyway.  So, it's not like their actually doing anything out of character.

I think it's particularly harsh to expect the Greens to go out among the general populace because, despite whatever arguements you can make for Randland being matriarchal, military matters are mostly handled by men. You might say, So?, but the male half of the populace seems to be the half with the least amount of sympathy for the WT. Even in those places where the Aes Sedai are closer to revered and women are generally to be obeyed, it must be a pretty prickly situation when an Aes Sedai gets involved with front-line operations.  It might be a little bit like being in the Secret Service and going into a fight President-first.

 

It would be harsh if they hadn't helped perpetuate that culture. In any case, they could get through that just by doing positive things for the populace. People's opinion of the White Tower would change very quickly if Aes Sedai operated locally to heal people, participating in the construction of roads and buildings, protected Borderland towns/cities, and even led raids into the Blight.

See, that's why I specified the Greens, because it's not easy to help a another foreign country's military. Travel is practically limited to horseback, caravan, boat, and one's own two feet. So if you're going to help on a military level you'd have to either establish a base in someone else's territory or they would have to allow the Sedai , as an individual, a lot of say so in their own existant military operations.

 

And lets keep in mind that the respective Ajahs can sometimes get along like cats in a sack. I can only see how it looks (espescially in a place a nightmarishly political as Tear or any other Daes Daemar player) when the lady in the Green dress shows up with an army saying, "Hey! I'm here to help. Let me build a fort," and then the other lady, in the red dress, shows up and says "Hey! I'm here to help; don't listen to that other chick. Also, I'm here to kill your son."

 

As far as building bridges, I don't think there's an "Engineering" Ajah (the orange? the peuce? the maroon?) and who knows if Tar Valon has enough money that they can pee it into every other economy on the planet for good PR.

I completely don't get where you see the Aes Sedai as doing nothing but sitting in their Tower.

 

When Malkier fell, they sent a call to the White Tower and asked for help.  Help was sent, but it arrived too late.  Because, as Jay pointed out, horseback travel across countries is damn slow.  Do you really think that was the *only* time in the history of the Tower that Sisters were dispatched to help with war against the shadow?  If the Aes Sedai were never in the boarderlands, they wouldn't have such a strong and abiding respect for them. 

 

In most places Morraine went, she had to hide her face within the cloak because people would recognize the ageless look on an Aes Sedai.  How could people recognize that look if Aes Sedai were never seen and never seen openly?  In the stories, we are seen a very limited view of the world focusing on those characters central to the story.  Aes Sedai were constantly out in the world, gathering information and affecting things on a regular basis.  They would have to talk to their eyes and ears, make contacts, travel to speak with leaders and dignitaries, all kinds of things.  They mentioned several specific occasions where the Gray Ajah had a personal hand in negotiating treaties and making sure the right people ascended to the throne.  And as the long-lived keepers of information, they were likely a lot wider than most people and had to trust to their own instincts in how best to apply themselves.

 

Yellow Ajah are sent with Green Ajah when they go to war for a country's behest.  They do fight the shadow and heal the soldiers.  In New Spring it mentions several times how the Tower was practically empty of any raised Aes Sedai because the sisters were all out, in the world, doing things to help against the Aiel in the war.  In times of relative peace there are still Aes Sedai out in the world doing the things that they feel would be the best use of their resources.

 

The Browns regularly go out into the world to gather new information, cataloging all of that, and then return to the Tower to store the information somewhere that it would be of use to the next generations.  You have to realize that there is no internet or printing press, there's no easy way to make 1000 copies of this very important book so that EVERYONE can read it - it would take scribes to do that and a lot of them.

 

If you look back in our own history, knowledge was regularly kept in singular, central locations where it could be protected and kept safe. 

 

---

 

You also have to realize that for the past 2500 or so years, they did not know when Tarmon Gaidon was going to happen.  For centuries now, the Green Ajah specifically have focused on honing their skills, the Warders have focused on being ready to face the shadowspawn, and all of them had no idea whether the BIG DAY was 5 years in the future or 5000.  So they did what they could, devoting themselves to training and fighting so they would be in their top form.  It's like having a military force for thousands of years, just waiting for that big war to happen.  They can't be blamed if they trained and trained and then nothing happens. 

 

I have no excuse for the whites. :)  But looking again to our own history, what did those philosophers and scholars who did heavy thinking do?  They sat around and thought.  About things like psychology and sociology, until they thought they had some pretty good ideas, and then they wrote them down.  So other people could learn from their thinking and expand on it.  Which is why we have science, medicine, engineering, physics, mathematics, and literature today.  Because someone in the past felt the best thing they could do with their life was think stuff up and write it down.

 

Moraine is not the only Blue to ever leave the Tower, Siuan's work with figuring out riddles and seeing patterns in the Tower was easily as important and lead directly towards her becoming an Amyrlin who would hunt the Black Ajah, support the Dragon Reborn and then later, after she was deposed and stilled, to advise Egwene as she becan the arduous journey of becoming quite possibly the most crucial Amyrlin ever.

 

*thinks*  If there's anything I've forgotten, I'll be back later.  Because I haven't written enough already, doncha know.

I completely don't get where you see the Aes Sedai as doing nothing but sitting in their Tower.

 

When Malkier fell, they sent a call to the White Tower and asked for help.  Help was sent, but it arrived too late.  Because, as Jay pointed out, horseback travel across countries is damn slow.  Do you really think that was the *only* time in the history of the Tower that Sisters were dispatched to help with war against the shadow?  If the Aes Sedai were never in the boarderlands, they wouldn't have such a strong and abiding respect for them.

They come too late after waiting for a call? well, i guess it was a surprise attack so not reall their fault.

 

The Browns regularly go out into the world to gather new information, cataloging all of that, and then return to the Tower to store the information somewhere that it would be of use to the next generations.  You have to realize that there is no internet or printing press, there's no easy way to make 1000 copies of this very important book so that EVERYONE can read it - it would take scribes to do that and a lot of them.

Well, the printing press didn't get invented till after the renesciance(sp?) or during, which came about when reinventing all kinds of things by studying and having colleges.

 

 

You also have to realize that for the past 2500 or so years, they did not know when Tarmon Gaidon was going to happen.  For centuries now, the Green Ajah specifically have focused on honing their skills, the Warders have focused on being ready to face the shadowspawn, and all of them had no idea whether the BIG DAY was 5 years in the future or 5000.  So they did what they could, devoting themselves to training and fighting so they would be in their top form.  It's like having a military force for thousands of years, just waiting for that big war to happen.  They can't be blamed if they trained and trained and then nothing happens.

According to that logic they would have ridden to the biggest False Dragon and offer their help. Because if you prepare for the One to come and lead them then you'd be happy if he was there right? Instead they gentled every potential dragon they could get their hands on. 

 

I have no excuse for the whites. :)  But looking again to our own history, what did those philosophers and scholars who did heavy thinking do?  They sat around and thought.  About things like psychology and sociology, until they thought they had some pretty good ideas, and then they wrote them down.  So other people could learn from their thinking and expand on it.  Which is why we have science, medicine, engineering, physics, mathematics, and literature today.  Because someone in the past felt the best thing they could do with their life was think stuff up and write it down.

Back to universities.. Unless you have a good place to share knowledge it is useless. I could sit around in a cave and discover the true purpose of the world and the way the universe works... Till i tell anyone it won't really matter will it?

 

Just my annoyance at their lack at well.. structural social building study behavioural something or other?

 

I will take the advice of Jay Solace and apply to Rand for the position of Head Ashaman of the Orange Ajah. Engineering here we come!

I will take the advice of Jay Solace and apply to Rand for the position of Head Ashaman of the Orange Ajah. Engineering here we come!

 

Orange you glad I suggested that?

I will take the advice of Jay Solace and apply to Rand for the position of Head Ashaman of the Orange Ajah. Engineering here we come!

 

Orange you glad I suggested that?

 

Took me about 5 rereads before it got through to me:) Serves me right for reading at 2:30 in the morning i suppose

You have to realize that there is no printing press, there's no easy way to make 1000 copies of this very important book so that EVERYONE can read it - it would take scribes to do that and a lot of them.

Wrong. The printing press was never lost.

Printing presses for example were one of the things that managed never quite to be wiped out completely. Printing started up again, even a few times during the Breaking people managed to get printing presses going, and once the Breaking was over, printing was one of the first trades to get going.

 

- Jordan, Dragoncon, September 2005