The Lord of the Rings movies didn't have the same feel to me as the books. These movies need the level of hardness and the sharp edge the books have. If they tone it down it won't be the same as the books or story we know.

 

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]     

i dont think the studios would make i r rated simply because it wouldnt sell as much.  pg13 is the best bet since you can get away with a lot yet not make it too vulgar.  wasnt lotr pg13?

Lotr is somewhat different and Darth and others have it right.  Fryn is right, you can't have Rand sickened by a PG13 Dumis Wells and what about the nudity.  You need most of that to give the cultures the feel.  Even it were an R, most theaters don't pay attention to the age thing anyway.

They pay attention to the age requirement more than they used to. But you can also get away with more for pg13 than you used, and you're also given more leeway if the movie is based on book.

Considering Wanted was rated R. Is based off of a comic, has a total of 1 scene where you see nudity (rear only), and less death scenes than WoT; I won't hold my breath for a PG - 13 rating. True it had more swearing based on our culture, but it has less than WoT when you take the books writing in the context of WoT culture.

 

For Reference Rambo struggled to get an R rating and was almost rated higher iirc. Either that or they wanted PG - 13 and were claiming the violence was to tell a story and bring about the realities going on in teh real world.

When thinking about the inclusion of graphic violence and nudity, I think you need to ask, "Is it crucial to the story?"

 

Nudity:

To me, the books are the definition of PG-13. Women are always mentioned as being stripped nude or taking baths, but nothing is described in detail. There's really nothing erotic about the scenes either, thus showing nipples and the groin area do nothing for the scene. From a story standpoint, the nude scenes are all (well, all that I can even remember) about baring yourself, stripping away your former self to be re-newed and/or be cleansed. Or to be humiliated. All ritualistic. Yes, Grendal has nude servants and wears see-through clothes, but that in itself isn't reason enough to warrent an R rating.

 

All the sex scenes cut away before anything happens, with Rand and Aviendha perhaps being the exception. I don't remember exactly. Remember, that Top Gun was PG yet had a very steamy love scene.  Titanic was PG-13 and even showed a bare Kate. And who could forget the hand on the steamy window. :) You can show an erotic scene in the PG-13 parameters.

 

Violence:

Come on... They don't need to physically explode bodies here. Mark my words: we'll see dirt exploding upward with bodies flying through the air, with Rand finding a severed arm or torso on the battlefield. Fantasy violence is much easier to simulate in a graphic way than real world violence. Read the ratings detail on some of your favorite movies: "contains fantasy violence" is pretty common.

 

Language:

Really? You think language will push the rating up to R? Not a chance. Ever watch Battlestar Galactica? They use "frak" for every four letter word. Everything from Frak! to Frak you to I fraked her last night. It's on the Sci Fi channel. Burn me and blood and bloody ashes won't even make the censors lift their pencil.

 

And before you all think I'm some prude, HBO's Rome is one of my all time favorite movies (well, tv series, but still a favorite). As is Deadwood. I would have no qualms about seeing a rated R WoT, but I think the chances of seeing that happen are slim to none.

 

Also, here's the real reason it will be PG-13: merchandising. It's why Batman Begins/Dark Knight were PG-13, and why the upcoming Terminator movies will be too. You can't sell action figures and toys to kids for a rated R movie.

 

(For what it's worth, I was 18 when I started reading these books and am 35 now.)

I concur 100% with everything Myrddin just said.  Producing R rated high-fantasy is something I haven't really seen anyone willing to try as of yet, and I doubt they'll start with something as easily PG-13'd as WoT.

Well, I disagree  ;D. Of course I'm a great fan of the books and want them to have worthy movies, and ones I would enjoy watching myself. I simply think having PG-13's would be a great risk at taking substance away and turning things into simple adventure.

 

I think that's a slightly different niche these other movies are covering, terminator and batman. These movies are one-offs using an established brand, the script is completely free and made to work for said action film without any further considerations.

 

WoT would follow LotR in the high fantasy segment. However, WoT is different from this, and it must make a separate effort to make its own name as movies. The success of the whole series of movies depends on the first movies, it is not possible to make them follow the mold of one-off movies, that is to strip it down to a standard-like movie. It is impossible to merely hype through each movie, and they would start flopping as the books move into ever more mature directions, as they do, or else the films would become unrecognisable from the books.

 

I think the WoT can be deceptive in that RJ does not write overly graphically, he does not focus on violence, he states that it happens and that is that, more like. However, that it happens is very relevant to the story. There is something in the Dark One that warrants opposing, there is some reason for all the effort. There are consequences that are real to all the choices in difficult situations the characters are put in. After all, from interviews, what RJ is writing about is that there is good and evil, right and wrong, honour and obligation, this is why he needed the fantasy genre to write what he writes about. You cannot depict this without showing the full spectrum of what is described as happening in the books. A very relevant part of the spectrum would be violence that just happens without it being more than remarked, as in Karede promptly killing Jadranka in PoD, or even laughed at as in Tylin raping Mat.

 

The nudity is there to show differing cultures, as well as to show the characters as humans. RJ upon request condenced the series to five words (as I recall): "societies change, cultures clash: cope". Again you need as much spectrum of cultures as possible for a movie to show a world in a time of change. The nudity is there because those people would be naked in said situation.

 

I think hopefully WoT follows LotR as a Rome-like version, that would be a good direction, and as Rome has been successful there is encouragement there too. And there aren't very many high fantasy films made, as RJ was one of the people who made it popular in writing, and you didn't really get to go beyond a trilogy before him. Just to say there isn't any standard path WoT would have to follow.

I concur 100% with everything Myrddin just said. Producing R rated high-fantasy is something I haven't really seen anyone willing to try as of yet, and I doubt they'll start with something as easily PG-13'd as WoT.

HBO would likely go down that route with ASoIaF. If Universal waited, they could see how successful that was and possibly use that to test the waters for R rated High Fantasy.

 

Tylin raping Mat.

Assuming Mat was raped...

Tylin raping Mat.

Assuming Mat was raped...

 

It's been a long time since I read that part, but wasn't Mat trying to get away from her all the time? That's enough for me to classify it as a rape (and if it was more than kisses - cfr. CLinton)

Tylin raping Mat.

Assuming Mat was raped...

It's been a long time since I read that part, but wasn't Mat trying to get away from her all the time? That's enough for me to classify it as a rape (and if it was more than kisses - cfr. CLinton)

He wasn't trying that hard. Seems more like a case of him being the chased rather than the chaser, which is not what he's used to. It's been debated before, so you can probably look up one of the old topics if you want to know more.

At the very least it was sexual abuse. Mat did not have any choice in the matter whatsoever, and he made it plain he did not wish said intercourse. At role-reversal it is an interesting example, since in the case of women there are all arguments 'she really wanted it' and 'she had it coming' etc, it is interesting how easily Mat falls into those. After all, Mat has only himself to blame for coming in through the front doors that first day, thus practically forcing Tylin to receive him or refuse audience, and what was Tylin supposed to think of a young man without any known station who draws her attention so? Mat did admit to himself he enjoyed it in the small snatches he could forget he was made into some kind of toy. Though there is some character growth there too, in Ebou Dar, Mat coming to see people in general more as humans and not just as fun or not fun. Anyway, yea that's a subject of its own, and serves where I put it only as an example of the spectrum of violence and the spectrum of how it is perceived, how it compares to the surrounding society.

its odd that when a man sexually abuses a woman its rape but when a woman does it to a man it is considered the guy being lucky.  such a puzzling double standard.

Um, there's more to a R-rating than nudity or language.  I think that people exploding into bloody shreds in the battles with the Asha'man would get an R-rating in the US, but maybe that's just me ...

Exactly.

 

And then there's the scene where Maesma and his crew are torturing a few Aiel ... by placing red hot stones on their chests... hmmm, roast pork anyone? Nice.

 

Oh, and then Perrin cuts a guy's hand off. Nice graphic description of spurting blood, futile attempts to stop the bleeding using his teeth etc., etc.

 

Edit**

 

And then there's the whole issue of people being stripped naked (mainly women) in order to be punished, and often being spanked/beaten once naked... Well. OK.

its odd that when a man sexually abuses a woman its rape but when a woman does it to a man it is considered the guy being lucky. such a puzzling double standard.

Something of a non sequiter. Talking about anyone in particular?

its odd that when a man sexually abuses a woman its rape but when a woman does it to a man it is considered the guy being lucky. such a puzzling double standard.

Something of a non sequiter. Talking about anyone in particular?

 

To a degree, I can see what the point is.

 

If a woman were to grab a man's butt playfully in an office, a man would most likely just laugh or feign shock, and be playful about it too.

Something similar happened to me once or twice, and I took no offense to it.

But I think it could definitely be seen as unprofessional and out of place in a work environment.

 

Put a woman in the same situation though, except a man touching her, it's more likely that she would feel accosted and threatened by it, and rightfully so in most if not all cases.

 

There is a note about consent to be said, but all in all, it's about the relationship between the people. If it's a comfortable one that allows for such displays, with consent on both sides, that only leaves the fact that whether or not it's an appropriate time and place for such play.

 

In Matt's case, I do sort of get the feeling that he really wanted to keep things on a more formal level with Tylin, but neither was he repulsed by the idea. I think it was uncomfortable due to the fact that Tylin would play with him openly in public. The misunderstanding is that people in her culture thought it was in her right to treat Matt as a Toy as a matter of course if she chose him. Most other cultures though frowned on such things, and apparently so does Matt. The sex isn't the issue, it's the manner in which it is initiated and handled in the public eye that mattered to Matt.

I guess RJ wanted to point out the dark justice of it all, that Matt finds dandling barmaids on his knee to be the most fun a man can have. And so when it's done to him, he is more flabbergasted than anything, because he is powerless to change the roles with Tylin.

its odd that when a man sexually abuses a woman its rape but when a woman does it to a man it is considered the guy being lucky.  such a puzzling double standard.

 

I agree, but it's the same thing when if a woman sleeps with a lot of men she's considered a slut and loses respect, but if a man sleeps with a lot of women he gets called a player and gains respect. Strange world we live in :P

 

Now I don't think forcing Mat to continue being her toy was fair, but I hardly think it was rape, and it's not like he was forcibly confined, if he wanted to badly enough, he could have gone elsewhere.