The Aes Sedai are one of the most complex groups in the story. They have a lot of problems, problems that are made worse by their refusal to concider them. This is an attempt to look at them in their full nature. I'll start with them as close i can to the beginning of their nature and proceed from there. I will finish with a summary of their current situation.

 

Aes Sedai Recruitment

 

Their problems begin with the methods they use to recruit and train new girls. They restrict their training to young girls who have sought them out (with the exception of the odd wilder). They do this because the younger a novice the easier they are molded, and because those that seek them out have a stronger will, and thus are more likely to be effective Aes Sedai.

 

Excluding the blindness in that--the girls who never concidered that they could channel, like Egwene and Nynaeve, yet nevertheless have made very strong, very capable Aes Sedai--there is a more insidious threat. That is that they were too successful.

 

By waiting on young, impressionable girls who are already wowed by the idea of Aes Sedai, and then proceeding to seclude them from the world for upwards of twenty years they result in Aes Sedai that are more concerned with trying to be what they think Aes Sedai should be, rather than simply being Aes Sedai. The title has come to mean more than the women that wear it, which means ultimately that said women are not worthy of the title.

 

This (combined with the point i will raise next) is the source of most of the modern Aes Sedai's childish behaviour. Comments such as 'there is truth that would burn any mind but an Aes Sedai's' and 'Thrones have fallen messing in the plans of the tower' are thrown around so often not as simple methods of persuasion, but because the Aes Sedai themselves are overawed by their own image. Their constant attempts to control every situation they are in stems not becaus they think themselves capable, but because they feel that as Aes Sedai they should be.

 

They are, for lack of a better phrase, victims of their own PR regiment.

 

The Oaths

 

Instigated initially to placate the fear of the general populace, they present a number of issues themselves. There is of course the obvious issues--the life-shortening effects the Oaths have on their lives. Also there are the effectiveness issues... the oath against using the power as a weapon, for instance, makes sense when dealing with non-channelers. For all that non-channelers might take out an individual Aes Sedai, any major attack could easily be held off by purely defensive methods, or at the worse, by the opening of the oaths to protect ones life (im speaking on the large scale by the way, with many Aes Sedai involved).

 

However, that does not continue through into dealing with enemies that have their own channelers. Such an oath only makes sense when you are the stronger force, not when you must deal with peers. And as we have seen with the emergence of the Asha'men, not to mention the Wise Ones, Windfinders and damane, the Aes Sedai are not the stronger force.

 

The same applies to the oath against the making of weapons for one man to kill another. They put that oath in at the memory of the terrible damage done during the Age of Legends--yet did not pause to consider that that damage was done in fighting a terrible enemy. Had the Light not equiped itself then something far worse would have come from it. It was pure luck that none of the Forsaken had expertise in making weapons. If they had the Light would have been doomed at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

But those are the obvious effects. What of the less obvious effects? Let's start with the original intentions of the Oaths--that they placate the fear of the masses. Certainly they have done so to a degree. Aes Sedai are trusted in a sense, and when they speak openly their words are taken as fact. But to go along with that are the constant iterence of phrases such as 'the truth an Aes Sedai speaks is not the truth you hear?"

 

It seems counter-productive to me to make people know you can't hurt them by swearing oaths not to... it presents the image that without such oaths Aes Sedai would be lying, murdering, weapon-mongers. Yes they are stopped from doing such things, yet it is still their nature.

 

And what of the effects on themselves. How long can a person who can't lie say something without coming to believe it to be true? Even when they know that they've manipulated the truth into a lie. Concider all the things Aes Sedai simply accepted as fact; should such intelligent, well-educated women such as they have been so simply accepting of the idea that the kin numbered a few dozen, that they gave up after a time and wandered off and stopped channeling?

 

It's a combination of the fact that all Aes Sedai are wowed by their own image, and that since they can't tell a lie, they obviously must speak the truth. Oh, they are intellectually aware of the holes in that, but after a time what was opinion becomes fact simply by that weight. Its an epidemic of their entire culture.

 

And one final point on the oaths before i move on. What of the ethical reprocutions? The three oaths address negative aspects of human nature. Lying, violence and creating instruments to do violence. Noble things to want to avoid doing; yet nonetheless at times these things are nessasary. As such how does one decide when to employ them?

 

The answer is simple--employ them when they are nessasary. The Aes Sedai, however, due to the fact that they are power-bound against such things, do not reguard it so. For them, it has become a situation of 'what is not forbidden is allowed'. Look at them. Look how easily they lie by ommision, or misrepresentation. An honest actual understanding of the concept and value of truth is completely missing from them, and that is contemptable.

 

The Decline in Their Numbers

 

They suggest that they have culled the ability from mankind by gentling every man they find, but we know this to be inaccurate. From RJ we know that roughly one percent of the modern population have the ability to channel which means there are several hundred thousand channelers in the Westlands alone. Logically it doesn't make sense either--most men don't spark until their mid twneties, which means they likely would already have families. All men who don't have the spark remain in the general genetic pool, as do the vast majority of female channelers.

 

The ability has indeed declined since the Age of Legends--from 3% to 1% likely as a result of a lack of interbreeding between male and female channelers. We know that in Shara were they specifically breed male and female channelers the numbers have remained higher. That being said, even with that decline, and the decline in the human populace of the westlands since the War of a Hundred Years there is still more than enough female channelers of a strength to gain the shawl--indeed, if all were found and trained they would exceed the Tower at its height.

 

So what are the causes for the decline?

 

The first is obvious. The introduction of the oaths halved the Aes Sedai's lifespan, which in turn halved the number of Aes Sedai that should be alive. Even so, without the oaths there would only be 2,000 Aes Sedai, still nothing near the 6,000 that the Aes Sedai numbered at their height.

 

The second reason is more insideous. Following Hawkwings attack the anger and fear the general populace felt for the Aes Sedai increased massively. This disfavour amongst the people continued, spouting misinformation where it went. We see the formation of the Children of the Light in this time, and the increased belief that Aes Sedai are darkfriend who broke the world for the Dark One (and it is increased, we know the people of the past had a much greater degree of knowledge about the nature of Aes Sedai and their intentions for the world, even when these people didn't trust Aes Sedai).

 

This change in the social perception of the Aes Sedai probably has alot to do with the way Aes Sedai currently hold themselves aloof from the general populace, which in turn likely spread the misinformation. As this increasingly bad opinion spread, naturally less girls sought the Tower. Effectively, the Tower continued on under its old method of letting girls approach, and when they didn't in as great a numbers the Tower concluded that the ability must be declining, when infact it was simply that the girls desire to approach the Tower that declined. That, combined with the decline in population resulted in the marked decline witnessed in the Tower.

 

What is the Future for Aes Sedai

 

I think it's bright. The sudden influx of so many novices including mature women means that sooner or later their will be Aes Sedai who arn't indoctrinated with the idea of being Aes Sedai. Frech thought will finally be introduced. And it is the perfect time for it. The Aes Sedai have suffered blows recently, and have been forced to change their thoughts on certan matters--the obvious example being the Asha'men. That means that they are in a state of flux, the perfect mentality for new thought to be introduced.

 

Add to that the ability to Travel and I suspect much more prodigous recruitment will begin.

 

Effectively, they're kind of wankers, but they're on their way out of that, and they have all the tools they need to achieve it.

But this will only come to pass with the right Amyrlin so we will have to see what the futur has to offer

Well I think Egwene's more than capable... but that being said even if they only had a mediocre Amyrlin I don't think they could stop it. There is too much fresh blood in the Aes Sedai, and too many other groups out their now not willing to back away from a sister simply because she's a sister.

 

A terrible Amyrlin could destroy them, but i don't think there is anyway to simply stop the change at this stage.

Excluding the blindness in that--the girls who never concidered that they could channel, like Egwene and Nynaeve, yet nevertheless have made very strong, very capable Aes Sedai--there is a more insidious threat. That is that they were too successful.

That always struck me as odd. We've never seen an Aes Sedai actively looking for women who could be taught. Yet, we occasionally hear references to how rich the Two Rivers is in terms of channelers. Moirane finds Eg. and Nyn as a happy side effect of looking for the DR, Verin's group of girls is a side effect of aiding Perrin; but, given that the Aes Sedai know about places rich in the channelers ... Well, it doesn't make sense. I understand why they do it, but, given the decline in numbers, it's just plain stupid.

This (combined with the point i will raise next) is the source of most of the modern Aes Sedai's childish behaviour.

Added to the fact that they, probably, have no social skills. Given that they went off to the Tower at a young age, have trained in isolation, and have only really dealt with their peers to any large degree... Well, it's not surprising they don't play well with others.

However, that does not continue through into dealing with enemies that have their own channelers.

True. Again, it's odd. The Wheel turns. The Power/the DO was always going to come back. Therefore, they should have seen the potential problems. They're educated, wordly women, they of all people should have realised the problems that lay ahead.

Aes Sedai are trusted in a sense, and when they speak openly their words are taken as fact. But to go along with that are the constant iterence of phrases such as 'the truth an Aes Sedai speaks is not the truth you hear?"

An inevitable consequence of having to live in the world and trying to hold to the Oath.

Imagine this -- Takes place in The Alternate Version of New Spring.

Moraine is hurrying from the Tower with the list of names and places that the she intended to search crammed in her pocket. She bumps into the head of the Black Ajah (can't remember her name.)

"Where are you off to?"

"Oh, I'm off to find the Dragon Reborn using my list of names and places."

"Come this way."

The two women step into a darkened room. There's a damp sounding *shluck*ish noise, followed by a thud. The head of the Black Ajah walks out alone, whistling The Entertainer to herself.

 

There. No need for 12 books (to date). Series ended on about page 200 of New Spring.

It seems counter-productive to me to make people know you can't hurt them by swearing oaths not to... it presents the image that without such oaths Aes Sedai would be lying, murdering, weapon-mongers.

Which is a slight improvement on those in power in a country having you killed on sight. True, there's mass paranoia whenever Aes Sedai are dealing with people, but it's better than having anyone with a modicum of power thinking that you're coming along to kill them off for whatever reason.

should such intelligent, well-educated women such as they have been so simply accepting of the idea that the kin numbered a few dozen, that they gave up after a time and wandered off and stopped channeling?

That was one of the least believeable threads in the books. Right up there with the insta-army that was the Aiel.

I think the answer to all your confusion about the obvious blind things they do is in the issue of them being so overawed with the idea of Aes Sedai--young, impressionable girls already in love with the thought then have it pressed into them over and over for upwards of twenty years....

 

By the time they actually become Aes Sedai they can't question the things that the Aes Sedai believe. For all their education and intelligence, on the single subject of Aes Sedai they are blind--simply too powerfully indoctrinated to see it. RJ comments on it several times.

 

 

An inevitable consequence of having to live in the world and trying to hold to the Oath.

Imagine this -- Takes place in The Alternate Version of New Spring.

Moraine is hurrying from the Tower with the list of names and places that the she intended to search crammed in her pocket. She bumps into the head of the Black Ajah (can't remember her name.)

"Where are you off to?"

"Oh, I'm off to find the Dragon Reborn using my list of names and places."

"Come this way."

The two women step into a darkened room. There's a damp sounding *shluck*ish noise, followed by a thud. The head of the Black Ajah walks out alone, whistling The Entertainer to herself.

 

Which is why i think they should get rid of the Oaths. Lying is a nessasary thing at times, but Aes Sedai arn't doing it when its nessasary, they are doing it in any situation where the oaths don't stop them doing it.

 

And its damaging. You cannot trust a person who your constantly looking at to mislead you. And the oaths truly do imply that its in an Aes Sedai's nature to lie, kill and make weapons.

 

The Wise Ones don't have this issue, which is why i think they are a much more self-aware and respectable group. And those Aes Sedai who for whatever reason have been forced to think outside the box are the same.

 

Which is a slight improvement on those in power in a country having you killed on sight. True, there's mass paranoia whenever Aes Sedai are dealing with people, but it's better than having anyone with a modicum of power thinking that you're coming along to kill them off for whatever reason.

 

My point would be this; the Wise Ones never had that issue, nor did the Windfinders for all that their nasty, and the reason for that is they were active in their communities using their abilities to help the people. The Aes Sedai found themselves in their position because they withdrew from the world, descending from their tower only to manipulate and push people for their own advantage.

 

It should never have gotten to such a dangerous situation--and in truth i doubt it would have come to Aes Sedai being killed, but meh. Even so the answer was not to handcuff yourself. That doesn't placate people, it proves to them they were right about you. In the short term that combined with the fact that Aes Sedai can channel, and were thus dangerous, it stopped lynchings occuring, but it did absolutely nothing to address the actual causes. If anything it made things worse.

 

Aes Sedai should be out there using their gifts to help people--i dont mean they should prostitute or subjigate themselves, but where are the Greens aiding borderlanders against the Blight? Where are the Yellows working in hospices to heal people. Where are the browns imploying any of their knowledge at all to better the world. Even simply being seen, being approachable to the general people would have made matters better. Instead they withdraw further making themselve more mysterious and scary, and swore oaths that suggest their intentions were malicious to begin with.

 

It's counter-productive.

 

 

 

 

I think the answer to all your confusion ...

What confusion? I'm not aware that I'm confused.

By the time they actually become Aes Sedai they can't question the things that the Aes Sedai believe. For all their education and intelligence, on the single subject of Aes Sedai they are blind--simply too powerfully indoctrinated to see it. RJ comments on it several times.

I understand that.

Which is why i think they should get rid of the Oaths. Lying is a nessasary thing at times, but Aes Sedai arn't doing it when its nessasary, they are doing it in any situation where the oaths don't stop them doing it.

Which isn't necessarily to do with the Oath, but, in my opinion, more likely to be linked with their view on what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be -- kingmakers/breakers and all that. In fact, I don't think it's got much to do with the Oath at all.

And the oaths truly do imply that its in an Aes Sedai's nature to lie, kill and make weapons.

To you maybe. Not to me. To me they are an attempt to distance themselves from the power grabbing politics of the world. And also to move on from the destruction of the world.

The Wise Ones don't have this issue, which is why i think they are a much more self-aware and respectable group. And those Aes Sedai who for whatever reason have been forced to think outside the box are the same.

Yes, but Wise Ones and Windfinders are part of the culture in which they live. Aes Sedai are not. They're drawn from all over the world. I mean, why would you trust someone to advise you if they were from the other side of the world unless they came with this reputation? Wise Ones and Windfinders have the weight of cultural acceptance to back them up. Aes Sedai don't.

The Aes Sedai found themselves in their position because they withdrew from the world, descending from their tower only to manipulate and push people for their own advantage.

And it's one of the constant criticisms on the boards. What do they actually do? The idea of a neutral group, one that can't lie and, essentially, can't kill is a great idea. The perfect mediators and upholders of justice (at the sharp end of the Borderlands or not) ... only they're not ... for all the reasons you've outlined.

It should never have gotten to such a dangerous situation--and in truth i doubt it would have come to Aes Sedai being killed, but meh.

Without the Oaths in place? During a time when channeling to kill was not uncommon? Perfectly possible that they'd be killed.

 

Look what happened in Seanchean... Presumably their Aes Sedai didn't have the Oaths? Not sure on that. But in any case, Aes Sedai got out of hand, killed a lot of people etc., etc.

Even so the answer was not to handcuff yourself.

Yeah, but at the time it probably seemed like a good idea. Hindsight is 20-20. They needed to be able to engage with the world, to be trusted. The Oaths seemed like a good idea. They made a strategic error, compounded by the fact that customs are often as binding as laws to the Aes Sedai.

Aes Sedai should be out there using their gifts to help people--i dont mean they should prostitute or subjigate themselves,........Even simply being seen, being approachable to the general people would have made matters better. Instead they withdraw further making themselve more mysterious and scary, and swore oaths that suggest their intentions were malicious to begin with.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

It's a vicious circle they've trapped themselves in. The Oaths make them untrustworthy, or at least something to be suspicious of, so people are wary of interacting with them. So, the answer could be to withdraw. Additionally, many of the Ajahs serve no purpose vis-a-vis making people's lives better. Aes Sedai are individuals, if a Brown wants to research 24/7 then fine, that's what she's there for. I mean, someone who researches Post Abbasid Period Islamic and Christian Poetry (medeval period) doesn't improve my life, but hey, knowledge is knowledge. (That's a real example). However, yes, I agree, the Greens and the Yellows should be doing more.

 

But, given the distrust issues ... Would people prefer not to deal with Aes Sedai on the daily basis, absolutely. How do you break that down. Yellow-run soup kitchens might not make rulers more inclined to listen to a Blue.

 

It's a tough situation. One that Egwene will no doubt address.

What confusion? I'm not aware that I'm confused.

 

Sorry, i misstated that. I meant the points of your frustration (and trust me, i feel the same way). You know...

 

--"Yet, we occasionally hear references to how rich the Two Rivers is in terms of channelers. Moirane finds Eg. and Nyn as a happy side effect of looking for the DR, Verin's group of girls is a side effect of aiding Perrin; but, given that the Aes Sedai know about places rich in the channelers ... Well, it doesn't make sense. I understand why they do it, but, given the decline in numbers, it's just plain stupid."

 

--"True. Again, it's odd. The Wheel turns. The Power/the DO was always going to come back. Therefore, they should have seen the potential problems. They're educated, wordly women, they of all people should have realised the problems that lay ahead."

 

--"That was one of the least believeable threads in the books. Right up there with the insta-army that was the Aiel. "

 

I agree completely with you, these are stupid and frustrating--and confusing given the relative intelligence of the Aes Sedai. I was just trying to point out that they all have the same basis--Aes sedai indoctrination of awe for the concept of being Aes Sedai.

 

Which isn't necessarily to do with the Oath, but, in my opinion, more likely to be linked with their view on what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be -- kingmakers/breakers and all that. In fact, I don't think it's got much to do with the Oath at all.

 

I agree that its based in large part in their idea of what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be--the whole practicing of giving Aes Sedai answers is more or less saying that institionalized lying is a requirement for gaining the shawl.

 

But its origin stems from the Oaths. It began there--and yes, it had to. The Aes Sedai needed to lie at times (which is part of why i reguard the Oaths to have been a bad choice to begin with).

 

What they didn't intend, but ultimately resulted, was the the ease with which Aes Sedai have come to lie as a result. When one cannot lie, the ethical and social implications of lying go out the window. It becomes a matter of simply what is allowed. Consider the way some Aes Sedai have sought to conceal matters behind a cloak of secrecy even when they don't need to.

 

Yes, this has come to be a part and parcel of what they percieve Aes Sedai to be, but it would not have without the ethical complications resulting from the Oaths. Effectively the Oaths were the source, that they've now glorified it in their concept of what an Aes Sedai is is pathetic, and a sign of their arrogance, but it still began with the Oaths, and as long as the Oaths exist it will continue.

 

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And the oaths truly do imply that its in an Aes Sedai's nature to lie, kill and make weapons.

 

To you maybe. Not to me. To me they are an attempt to distance themselves from the power grabbing politics of the world. And also to move on from the destruction of the world.

 

I'm afraid i don't understand that at all. The Aes Sedai never attempted to distance themselves from the power grabbing politics... indeed, they instigated the oaths so that they could continue to go out into the world and manipulate it. No one was ever going to actually try and attack the Aes Sedai as a whole--Hawkwing proved the futility of that. They instigated the oaths in order that they could still manipulate the world. It wasn't a fear of being lynched, it was a fear that their suspicion would curtail their political power.

 

But furthermore, what does that have to do with this? Whatever Aes Sedai intentions were they don't influence the implications taking the Oaths have. By binding themselves magically against doing these things they suggest that they were considering doing these things. It has nothing to do with intentions, only with effects.

 

Yes, but Wise Ones and Windfinders are part of the culture in which they live. Aes Sedai are not. They're drawn from all over the world. I mean, why would you trust someone to advise you if they were from the other side of the world unless they came with this reputation? Wise Ones and Windfinders have the weight of cultural acceptance to back them up. Aes Sedai don't.

 

But they should. Country differences can be dealt with, and the Aes Sedai already have systems in place to deal with that.

 

Effectively you've made my point for me. The Aes Sedai should have what the Wise Ones and Windfinders have--that they don't results from their withdrawal from the world, thus they alienated the people. Swearing the Oaths only addressed the symptom, the fear resulting from their mysteriousness... the problem is precisely as you stated--the Aes Sedai don't have the weight of cultural acceptance. And thats their own fault.

 

And it's one of the constant criticisms on the boards. What do they actually do? The idea of a neutral group, one that can't lie and, essentially, can't kill is a great idea. The perfect mediators and upholders of justice (at the sharp end of the Borderlands or not) ... only they're not ... for all the reasons you've outlined.

 

The not lying and not killing doesn't help, to my mind, but i agree. They arn't what they should be.

 

Without the Oaths in place? During a time when channeling to kill was not uncommon? Perfectly possible that they'd be killed.

 

Umm, channeling to kill was never common amongst the Aes Sedai. Indeed, there is not reference to a single such incident. The great disfavour came when Artur Hawkwing turned on them because of Bonwhin's attempts to control him....

 

That being said, i still disagree. Aes Sedai are not easily killed, and i doubt people would follow through in the fact of facing them. Oh individuals might get killed, but no more so than what the Whitecloaks currently are capable of. No real threat to the Tower as a whole. No, the Oaths were instigated because the social suspicion of Aes Sedai weakened or destroyed their ability to influence the world on a political level, not because it represented a true threat.

 

Look what happened in Seanchean... Presumably their Aes Sedai didn't have the Oaths? Not sure on that. But in any case, Aes Sedai got out of hand, killed a lot of people etc., etc.

 

Aes Sedai lived for two thousand years in the Westlands without the attrocities known in Seanchan and without the Oaths.  The Aes Sedai in Seanchan were power-hungry tyrants, just like all the rulers in Seanchan. That never happened in the Westlands, and wasn't building to happen. Indeed, had it the Tower could easily have conquered the westlands--no force in the Westlands could have stood against upwards of four thousand channelers.

 

They didn't. They did not swear the oaths to stop themselves acting in that manner. They never acted in that manner. They did it to placate the petty fears of the general populace--and they were stupid for doing so. It addresses the fears, when they should have been addressing the source of those fears.

 

Yeah, but at the time it probably seemed like a good idea. Hindsight is 20-20. They needed to be able to engage with the world, to be trusted. The Oaths seemed like a good idea. They made a strategic error, compounded by the fact that customs are often as binding as laws to the Aes Sedai.

 

Oh, I don't disagree--it's much easier to see and address the symptoms than the cause, especially when it results from a flaw in your own nature.

 

Doesn't make them right, or smart.

 

It's a vicious circle they've trapped themselves in. The Oaths make them untrustworthy, or at least something to be suspicious of, so people are wary of interacting with them. So, the answer could be to withdraw. Additionally, many of the Ajahs serve no purpose vis-a-vis making people's lives better. Aes Sedai are individuals, if a Brown wants to research 24/7 then fine, that's what she's there for. I mean, someone who researches Post Abbasid Period Islamic and Christian Poetry (medeval period) doesn't improve my life, but hey, knowledge is knowledge. (That's a real example). However, yes, I agree, the Greens and the Yellows should be doing more.

 

But, given the distrust issues ... Would people prefer not to deal with Aes Sedai on the daily basis, absolutely. How do you break that down. Yellow-run soup kitchens might not make rulers more inclined to listen to a Blue.

 

How would i deal with that? Hmm... interesting question. There would be two important things to achieve--to become more approachable and understandable to the people, and to maintain the high standing of Aes Sedai. Go too far and you become subserviant, and that achieves nothing, fall short and your efforts seem self-serving and manipulative.

 

My suggestion would be this. Create Halls in each of the major cities. Something impressive, but not oppulant--avoid any connection to the ruling elite, yet still be dignified. Have these building serve as embassies in which the Grey and Blue can act from, and have a part of the Hall dedicated to a hospice run by Yellows, yet with suplemantry support from herbal based healers. Perhaps start a school for herbal healers taught by browns. In the long wrong being Aes Sedai taught would become a mark of knowledge, and then any healing done by them would accrue some degree of respect for Aes Sedai. In the Borderlands these Halls should have Greens who fight with the borderlanders against the Blight.

 

Another idea would be to have Accepted to do rounds of the Halls to serve in the hospices. Aside from providing the Accepted with real life experience of all countries when they are forced to deal with normal people humbly, it would provide a link to the Tower for normal people. As students these women don't have to be aloof, and can show their humanity without weakening the image of the Aes Sedai.

 

Have browns start working on issues that matter to the world too. Suggesting irrigation and farming methods to improve crop productions. Have them study hygene and turn their information over to the masses. Hell, let them start schools and educate the masses. As it is the Tower is the greatest store of knowledge in the world, yet only Aes Sedai and throwouts have that knowledge. The throwouts can't speak of it for fear of Aes Sedai attention and the Aes Sedai don't because of hubris.

 

No, there are a lot of things the Aes Sedai could do to endear themselves to the world without sacrificing their position of strength and authority.

Yes they could do more to improve peoples lives but would people want their help?  Many might not hate the Aes Sedai but they want very little to do with them.  But without the three oaths it would be worse, people might be suspicious of what they say now but without them how could they trust anything they say?  Without the oaths Randland could easily of ended up like the ones in Seanchan freely using their power to gain power.

 

Alot of what they do is becuase they think they know better then most people.  After all they live at least twice as long as your average farmer so they do know more then the general population.  As was said in a book I believe "that most people even rememeber that the DOo waits" is because of the Aes Sedai.  What most do is for the good but the ytend to go about it in wrong ways.  They know only strong stable nations can withstand the DO so they mess in nations affairs and usually make a mess of things.  They to me are like a parent thinking everyone else is children.  They know best and want to guide you.

 

As for the Two Rivers, hardly anyone thinks of the place so I can't really fault Aes Sedai for not visiting there regualrly to test girls.  It is way out of the way to anywhwere.  I am sure alot of Aes Sedai would of been visitng there once Moraine reported what she found but with all the problems going on I am sure that got dropped on list of priorities.  After all it was left bit vague I think on why Verin and Alanna were down there anyway.

 

Just because they are Aes Sedai doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. But don't forget who knows what the BA has been up to over the years, maybe some of the mistrust and stuff has been because of their doing.

Yes they could do more to improve peoples lives but would people want their help?  Many might not hate the Aes Sedai but they want very little to do with them.  But without the three oaths it would be worse, people might be suspicious of what they say now but without them how could they trust anything they say?  Without the oaths Randland could easily of ended up like the ones in Seanchan freely using their power to gain power.

 

Firstly this should never be about what people want. If the Aes Sedai were to attempt to in any way gratiate themselves to public opinion they'd end up ridicules ans loathed. People who have a greater strength than the average person cannot placate them by attempting to serve them. The people would see this as a sign of weakness, and their natural envy of that persons strength would cause them to turn aginst them.

 

What we are speaking of is the Aes Sedai openly using their gifts for the people. No pausing and asking them what they want, merely opening up those gifts and knowledge for the use of the people. If the people don't want to use it it doesn't matter. Accesibility is the issue, not effect.

 

And without the three oaths it would not be worse. The Aes Sedai existed for millenia without them without turning into the tyrants that ruled the Seanchan continent. what occured there occured specifically because of their cultural history, and the Aes Sedai in Randland never mirrored that progression. That was never an issue.

 

The three oaths make it worse. By swearing them the Aes Sedai admit that they might have done exactly that.

 

 

The Wise Ones don't have this issue, which is why i think they are a much more self-aware and respectable group. And those Aes Sedai who for whatever reason have been forced to think outside the box are the same.

Yes, but Wise Ones and Windfinders are part of the culture in which they live. Aes Sedai are not. They're drawn from all over the world. I mean, why would you trust someone to advise you if they were from the other side of the world unless they came with this reputation? Wise Ones and Windfinders have the weight of cultural acceptance to back them up. Aes Sedai don't.

 

Wise Ones and Windfinders started out the same as Aes Sedai, channelers in a post-Breaking world.  There was no organization like them prior to the Breaking.  After the Breaking, societies developed and channelers needed to have a place.  Cultural acceptance develops over time.  The Aes Sedai would have the same cultural acceptance, but they withdrew from the world.  The Wise Ones and Windfinders interact daily with their people.  They have a definite purpose in their societies.  The Aes Sedai do not have any one regular purpose, beyond advising nobility.  Even in that case, the Aes Sedai remain aloof and hardly ever reveal the reasons for their actions, instead giving a line about how the business of the White Tower is not for mere mortals to know.  It is a vicious cycle, but their reputation and lack of cultural acceptance is their own fault. 

 

On the other hand, though, Wise Ones and Windfinders may have had it a little easier for two reasons.  First, they don't use the name "Aes Sedai" which has connotations with the Breaking and the Forsaken, among others.  Second, the Sea Folk and Aiel live in much more demanding conditions.  Both live in difficult environments, so the strength of channelers is necessary for the survival of their people. 

The three oaths are a direct result of past experiences.  AOL showed the danger of power used freely can cause and because so many blamed the Aes Sedai for the breaking of the world. 

 

 

People who have a greater strength than the average person cannot placate them by attempting to serve them.

 

Ironic, since Aes Sedai means "Servants of All"...

 

As it is, I think the Aes Sedai do little more than serve themselves and their own ends.

 

I do believe it is possible to serve people without being subservient. Did the Aes Sedai not do that in the Age of Legends? However, given the current public opinion of Aes Sedai, it is going to be very difficult for them to earn any open public favor or trust. Once the public is frightened and untrusting, they aren't likely to open themselves to the Aes Sedai again. 

AOL showed the danger of power used freely can cause ...

 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  What power was being used freely?  What was the danger?  How is it any different now?

Baelfiring entire cities, making weapons, using their powers for war....... 

Baelfiring entire cities, making weapons, using their powers for war....... 

 

But what was the danger?  The war had to be fought, and weapons were necessary.  Except for balefire, none of the weapons they used backfired. 

The danger was the amount of destruction and death this all caused.  The Aes Sedai I think basicly decided if people are going to kill each other they won't help. This way they can help limit the scope of destruction caused by war.

 

They did leave themselves a way out with the "except in defense of their life or the life of their warder or against shadowspawn".  As we have seen a couple of times now in the book they will participate in a fight.

 

Funny though the oaths have made them pretty useless as weapons for the Seanchan.

Sorry, i misstated that. I meant the points of your frustration (and trust me, i feel the same way). You know...

Gotcha.

To you maybe. Not to me. To me they are an attempt to distance themselves from the power grabbing politics of the world. And also to move on from the destruction of the world.

I'm afraid i don't understand that at all.

Apologies, what I meant was away from the warlike activities of the past. By establishing rules that framed what they could and couldn't do.

By binding themselves magically against doing these things they suggest that they were considering doing these things. It has nothing to do with intentions, only with effects.

Or that people would be unable to look beyond the past. The Power had been used to kill. Channelers had been the elite members of society. Limiting their own power can be seen as an attempt (misguided at that) to remove those fears.

But they should. Country differences can be dealt with, and the Aes Sedai already have systems in place to deal with that.

Yes ... but they don't have the cultural history that comes with the channelers living cheek and jowl with the people. They have the exact opposite, they live, hermit-like in the Tower...

Effectively you've made my point for me. The Aes Sedai should have what the Wise Ones and Windfinders have--that they don't results from their withdrawal from the world, thus they alienated the people. Swearing the Oaths only addressed the symptom, the fear resulting from their mysteriousness... the problem is precisely as you stated--the Aes Sedai don't have the weight of cultural acceptance. And thats their own fault.

But they never will have what the WOs and WFs have. They can't. The very idea of all of them residing in the WT makes it all but impossible. The vicious circle of oaths and fear also shoots them in the foot.

 

It's like saying "Wouldn't it be great if the U.N. was universally respected by all nations." -- Yeah, in theory. But....

The not lying and not killing doesn't help, to my mind, but i agree. They arn't what they should be.

Sure, we can go back and forth over it, but essentially it was the idea, not the details that's important.

 

channeling to kill was never common amongst the Aes Sedai. Indeed, there is not reference to a single such incident. The great disfavour came when Artur Hawkwing turned on them because of Bonwhin's attempts to control him....

What about the AOL? What were the combat-minded Aes Sedai if not Power wielding killing machines?

That being said, i still disagree. Aes Sedai are not easily killed, and i doubt people would follow through in the fact of facing them.

True, but if there was a perception that they could kill you if they wanted? Well, I think there'd be more thought put in as to how to do it. There'd also be more people who'd consider doing it too.

Oh individuals might get killed, but no more so than what the Whitecloaks currently are capable of.

That's one thing that's always bugged me through the books. We always here warnings like "All it takes is a single arrow." Well, yeah. But when has it happened? The closet I can recall is Alanna losing a warder to the Whitecloaks (not the same, but hey) and the stabbing of the Aes Sedai in Camelyn.

No real threat to the Tower as a whole. No, the Oaths were instigated because the social suspicion of Aes Sedai weakened or destroyed their ability to influence the world on a political level, not because it represented a true threat.

And, by and large, I'd agree with you. However, all I'm saying that nobles/those in power might be willing to off an Aes Sedai if they thought she was willing and able to threaten them.

The Aes Sedai in Seanchan were power-hungry tyrants, just like all the rulers in Seanchan. That never happened in the Westlands, and wasn't building to happen.

But that is not to say that it couldn't.

 

I mean, where the Aes Sedai in Seanchan naturally power hungry? Or were they shaped/changed by what was happening over there? I'd go with the latter. Power corrupts, especially when they would have been over the horizon, away from their peers.

 

Yes, it's unlikely to ever happen in the Westlands... but then it could happen. And that is one common rationale behind the creation of laws, that the Aes Sedai took it as far as an Oath... well.

They didn't. They did not swear the oaths to stop themselves acting in that manner. They never acted in that manner. They did it to placate the petty fears of the general populace--and they were stupid for doing so. It addresses the fears, when they should have been addressing the source of those fears.

There isn't always a single reason, it can easily be seen as a combination of any numbers of factors. One of which is certainly what you're talking about.

My suggestion would be this....

All good ideas, some of which I think Eggy will get around to setting up.

Or that people would be unable to look beyond the past. The Power had been used to kill. Channelers had been the elite members of society. Limiting their own power can be seen as an attempt (misguided at that) to remove those fears.

 

Oh, I very much acknowledge that those fears were real, and that the oaths were an attempt to address them, i just very much think it was misguided, that swearing the oaths addressed the symptoms of that fear, not the cause, and that in the long run swearing those oaths has proved counter-productive to the intention of placating fears.

 

Yes ... but they don't have the cultural history that comes with the channelers living cheek and jowl with the people. They have the exact opposite, they live, hermit-like in the Tower...

 

Very true, and what i would directly say to be their biggest problem.

 

Don't get me wrong, i understand why the Aes Sedai didn't realise these things... it's just i reguard that to be a failure on their part.

 

But they never will have what the WOs and WFs have. They can't. The very idea of all of them residing in the WT makes it all but impossible. The vicious circle of oaths and fear also shoots them in the foot.

 

It's like saying "Wouldn't it be great if the U.N. was universally respected by all nations." -- Yeah, in theory. But....

 

The issue is that this is not something that was impossible for them to achieve. They did not gain it because of their behaviour to the people--they could very easily have what the Wise Ones and Windfinders have, but they hamstrung themselves.

 

And this isn't a 'wouldn't it be great...' The Aes Sedai could have gained this, they just didn't do what was nessasary to achieve it.

 

What about the AOL? What were the combat-minded Aes Sedai if not Power wielding killing machines?

 

Well, protecters for one. The idea of this issue is of Aes Sedai misusing the Power--killing and murdering with it to achieve their own ends. The Oaths actually allow for them to do exactly what those AOL Aes Sedai did.

 

Aside from which i was speaking of the modern Aes Sedai--near two thousand years had passed with no oaths and no random killing. They did not need to bind themselves against that for any form of practical purpose.

 

True, but if there was a perception that they could kill you if they wanted? Well, I think there'd be more thought put in as to how to do it. There'd also be more people who'd consider doing it too.

 

That perception was there for two thousand years. It was a reality of Aes Sedai being stronger than the average individual. Binding themselve to placate that fear was not the answer.

 

That's one thing that's always bugged me through the books. We always here warnings like "All it takes is a single arrow." Well, yeah. But when has it happened? The closet I can recall is Alanna losing a warder to the Whitecloaks (not the same, but hey) and the stabbing of the Aes Sedai in Camelyn.

 

There are references to it happening offscreen, and of course Fain managed to stab both an Accepted and Rand, and Min got a knife in Semirhage.

 

But the reality is its not easy for a normal person to take out a channeler. It can be done, but not on any sort of wide scale effect, which is why i dont agree that the feeling of actual threat was involved in the swearing of the oaths. It was political.

 

And, by and large, I'd agree with you. However, all I'm saying that nobles/those in power might be willing to off an Aes Sedai if they thought she was willing and able to threaten them.

 

I very much doubt that would ever be an issue. No Aes Sedai could be seen to openly carry out political assasinations, and the limited issue of those in power trying to off Aes Sedai that threatened their position would have continued even without it. The oaths prevent only overt action, and that wasn't possible anyway.

 

But that is not to say that it couldn't.

 

I mean, where the Aes Sedai in Seanchan naturally power hungry? Or were they shaped/changed by what was happening over there? I'd go with the latter. Power corrupts, especially when they would have been over the horizon, away from their peers.

 

Yes, it's unlikely to ever happen in the Westlands... but then it could happen. And that is one common rationale behind the creation of laws, that the Aes Sedai took it as far as an Oath... well.

 

They were specifically shaped by what was happening over there. The Seanchan continent was plauged by war with the shadowspawn for near a thousand years after the breaking, and after that they naturally collapsed to war with each other.

 

By the same token the Aes Sedai here were shaped by what was happening here. The likelyhood of any such thing happening is so low its irrelevant, and one does not bind oneself on such notions. One shouldn't in point of fact. Its an absolute violation of a persons rights.

 

And that is not a rationale behind law--such laws are violations of human rights, and no country in the world could support or sustain them. Furthermore the Aes Sedai didn't swear those hopes out of the fear that they might do such a thing. That never even remotely occured to them.

 

There isn't always a single reason, it can easily be seen as a combination of any numbers of factors. One of which is certainly what you're talking about.

 

But yours is not one of those reasons. I'm sorry if that sounds arbitrary, but its true.

 

 

I believe we should also see things in perspective here. Yes, the Aes Sedai do give up some of their priviledges through the Oaths, but...

 

Making weapons with the Power is something only they can do anyway.

 

Killing with the Power is something only they can do anyway.

 

So those two Oaths really don't restrict them in a way below the normal capacities of a normal person. Their lifespan is nearly three times as long even with the Oaths, and the people would probably consider giving up lying a fair exchange for wielding the Power to make everything easier. Perhaps it's not quite the right thing to do, but people in Randland may view it as the only way to be right - an Aes Sedai's capacity is still above them except for the ability to lie. Perhaps the Aes Sedai themselves think of the matter as such. A price to pay for being Aes Sedai. Now if the Aes Sedai could prove that the excess of their abilities was used for the good of the society and never for evil, such as the Aes Sedai in the AoL did, then the people might accept the Aes Sedai unbound, and the Aes Sedai themselves, once they stop seeing themselves as "different flesh", as most if not all do, they would accept being unbound as well. But all the people see is a bunch of sorceresses using their strength for their own good and the good of the Tower, and trying to manipulate everything into helping that cause.

 

But I kind of like the idea of them remaining bound. In a realistic situation, nothing is perfect, and the Aes Sedai's organization shouldn't be an exception. The Oaths are a fine example of what could be improved upon in aMoL, but shouldn't. Why? Because it could be one of the 'stains' left behind, one of the things never corrected. Some speculate that after aMoL Randland will be "perfect". I disagree with that notion. I want the Oaths to remain, simply because they aren't a good thing.

i just very much think it was misguided, that swearing the oaths addressed the symptoms of that fear, not the cause, and that in the long run swearing those oaths has proved counter-productive to the intention of placating fears.

I'd agree there. But the reason is quite clear. If the Aes Sedai had stuck with the spirit of the oath, then they wouldn't be where they are now.

The issue is that this is not something that was impossible for them to achieve. They did not gain it because of their behaviour to the people--they could very easily have what the Wise Ones and Windfinders have, but they hamstrung themselves.

Only there is no place within the cultural setting of the Wetlands for channelers ... The WT itself is an atifical creation. ... I don't see how the AS could intergrate themselves.

And this isn't a 'wouldn't it be great...' The Aes Sedai could have gained this, they just didn't do what was nessasary to achieve it.

And the UN could have been respected if it worked, etc..

 

I'm of the opinion that the AS were doomed from the start anyway.

Well, protecters for one. The idea of this issue is of Aes Sedai misusing the Power--killing and murdering with it to achieve their own ends. The Oaths actually allow for them to do exactly what those AOL Aes Sedai did.

Hmmm... I don't think so. For example, the killing of DFs and in defence oath. That would have stopped the use of balefire on cities during the AOL. That would appear to have happened on both the side of the light and the shadow.... The passage, from memory, does not lay it solely at the feet of the Shadow.

Aside from which i was speaking of the modern Aes Sedai--near two thousand years had passed with no oaths and no random killing. They did not need to bind themselves against that for any form of practical purpose.

Apologies, but it happened in Seanchan... Whatever else was going on, those people were still Aes Sedai.

But the reality is its not easy for a normal person to take out a channeler. It can be done, but not on any sort of wide scale effect, which is why i dont agree that the feeling of actual threat was involved in the swearing of the oaths. It was political.

Hmmm... bearing in mind that it's a time of strife, war etc... Well... we see, onscreen, Ituralde, possibly Perrin's lot and maybe the Whitecloaks (from memory) kill damane with bows... It's not really that hard. How tough would it be to hide in a forest, loose a dozen shafts and run like hell...? Not very.

I very much doubt that would ever be an issue. No Aes Sedai could be seen to openly carry out political assasinations, and the limited issue of those in power trying to off Aes Sedai that threatened their position would have continued even without it.

Again, apologies. But Seanchan Aes Sedai were ruthless. Who's to say that Wetland Aes Sedai couldn't have done the same?

 

Sorry, when have we seen a powerful individual trying to off an Aes Sedai. A non-DF or Whitecloak that is...?

But yours is not one of those reasons. I'm sorry if that sounds arbitrary, but its true.

Luckers ... read the capitals at the bottom of my sig.

That's one thing that's always bugged me through the books. We always here warnings like "All it takes is a single arrow." Well, yeah. But when has it happened? The closet I can recall is Alanna losing a warder to the Whitecloaks (not the same, but hey) and the stabbing of the Aes Sedai in Camelyn.

 

The warning is actually a good one.  Throughout WOT, channelers constantly underestimate and overlook nonchannelers.  Even more, they underestimate shielded channelers, as if they can only use the Power.  For example, when Elayne and co. go after the Black Ajah in KOD, they are shielded but not bound by flows of Air.  So when Careane is revealed to be a Darkfriend, Vandene is able to kill her with a knife.

I think it's all a moot point anyway.  I hope that Rand engineers a way with the Asha'man to make the order of the AS fade away.

The warning is actually a good one.  Throughout WOT, channelers constantly underestimate and overlook nonchannelers.

Oh yeah, I know.

 

But my point is, given the number of channelers that feature on screen throughout the books, that we haven't seen anyone (I mean a named channeler with a little history) die from an arrow wound, a snake bite, etc. etc. You know, the things that they're warned about all the time.

I believe we should also see things in perspective here. Yes, the Aes Sedai do give up some of their priviledges through the Oaths, but...

 

Making weapons with the Power is something only they can do anyway.

 

Killing with the Power is something only they can do anyway.

 

So those two Oaths really don't restrict them in a way below the normal capacities of a normal person.

 

Which is not a reason to swear such oaths, or to bind themselves in such a manner. Truly skilled scientists could achieve equal levels of destruction if they so chose, but binding them in such a manner would be reguarded as a vicious violation of rights.

 

That they could do something does not mean that they would. When and if they do they should be punished, be precursive action is completely reprehensible.

 

Their lifespan is nearly three times as long even with the Oaths, and the people would probably consider giving up lying a fair exchange for wielding the Power to make everything easier.

 

To look at it another way, they are being asked to commit suicide in the middle years to soothe fickle fears of the masses.

 

Perhaps it's not quite the right thing to do, but people in Randland may view it as the only way to be right - an Aes Sedai's capacity is still above them except for the ability to lie.

 

Their views result from a failure on behalf of the Aes Sedai to appropriately intermix with the people, but that doesn't mean their views should be enacted upon. There are other ways to deal with public fear, and bowing to it is not the way--that only perpetuates this situation. The Aes Sedai will never stop being stronger than the average individual. They can't help it. The more they try to placate that fear instead of simply dealing with the people, the more problems they will cause.

 

I'd agree there. But the reason is quite clear. If the Aes Sedai had stuck with the spirit of the oath, then they wouldn't be where they are now.

 

Mmm, the problem is the method with which they recruit novices (relying on their awe to bring them to the Tower) means there was no chance of the Aes Sedai remaining objective enough to stick with the spirit of the Oaths.

 

I'd still probably be against them anyway, mind. It was the wrong response to a nasty situation. I understand why they made it, but it was still a mistake.

 

Only there is no place within the cultural setting of the Wetlands for channelers ... The WT itself is an atifical creation. ... I don't see how the AS could intergrate themselves.

 

Then how did the Kin fit themselves in? The Aes Sedai could have achieved that and still retain their independence and authority--i offered the suggestions on how a few posts ago.

 

Quote

And this isn't a 'wouldn't it be great...' The Aes Sedai could have gained this, they just didn't do what was nessasary to achieve it.

 

And the UN could have been respected if it worked, etc..

 

I'm of the opinion that the AS were doomed from the start anyway.

 

Your analogy is flawed. The UN was a body without the power to back itself. It represented a concept of unity. The Aes sedai were a monolithic organisation with the real ability to effect their will. Had they chosen to they could have acted in specific ways that would have brought about the respect of the people. The UN did not have those options.

 

In effect, the UN could never have worked, and thus could never have been respected. The Aes Sedai however could have made work whatever they wished to, they simply didn't.

 

Hmmm... I don't think so. For example, the killing of DFs and in defence oath. That would have stopped the use of balefire on cities during the AOL. That would appear to have happened on both the side of the light and the shadow.... The passage, from memory, does not lay it solely at the feet of the Shadow.

 

I don't see the Light having balefired cities. It's counter-productive to their purpose.

 

Apologies, but it happened in Seanchan... Whatever else was going on, those people were still Aes Sedai.

 

No, for all functional purposes they were not. The words Aes Sedai are just words, they are not a state of being. Using them will not alter your nature.  Aes Sedai this side of the ocean had a completely different history, their training and their methodology were oceans apart. Literally.

 

The Seanchan Aes Sedai and the Westlands Aes Sedai were, for all intents and purposes, two seperate and distinct bodies. One groups actions will not influence anothers.

 

Put it this way, Middle Eastern people blew up the Twin Towers. Whatever else was going on, those people were still human... therefore you'll blow up giant phallic buildings too, yes?

 

People are what they are. We set up laws for when they do harm, but we can't seek to preemptively punish on the posibility of doing harm. Channelers have greater ability to do terrible deeds... which sadly, changes nothing.

 

Hmmm... bearing in mind that it's a time of strife, war etc... Well... we see, onscreen, Ituralde, possibly Perrin's lot and maybe the Whitecloaks (from memory) kill damane with bows... It's not really that hard. How tough would it be to hide in a forest, loose a dozen shafts and run like hell...? Not very.

 

Resulting in individual deaths. Tragic. Not terribly important on a socio-political scale.

 

Non-channelers could not threaten the Tower. Not unless they all united and bent singularily to that purpose, and no matter how bad the period was they weren't going to do that--for starters they had the War of a Hundred Years, and then the aftermath. No one was going to be gathering the sort of force needed to destroy the Tower. End of game.

 

Again, apologies. But Seanchan Aes Sedai were ruthless. Who's to say that Wetland Aes Sedai couldn't have done the same?

 

Cultural upbringing. Education. Organisation. Tower Law.

 

They could definately have done what the Seanchan did--likely to greater effect since they were organised and unified. They did not, their training and life doesn't allow for it. The people somewhere else did something bad is no reason to suspect them. They are not those people. They did not have their life.

 

By the same logic you use the Wise One's lived near four thousand years without doing any such harm--clearly then all channelers must live that way, yes?

 

Oh wait...

 

Sorry, when have we seen a powerful individual trying to off an Aes Sedai. A non-DF or Whitecloak that is...?

 

Beonin mentions some, for start. She states that her warder had saved her countless times when powerful people hadn't liked how she had interpreted the law. What of Moiraine and the assasin Goethanes? Doubtlessly sent by the Riatin's to stop Damodred succession.

 

But your point is counter-intuitive. Powerful people moving against Aes Sedai would only do so with political reasons. They'd know that an Aes Sedai could not openly use the power against them to get what they want irrespective of the Oaths. The political implications to the Tower are simply too great.

 

Luckers ... read the capitals at the bottom of my sig.

 

Don't worry, i won't be arresting you for your thoughts. It doesn't change my position though--you are linking a seperate political and cultural body as a cause for the pre-emptive constriction of another groups rights. It's not only illogical, its a violation of basic human freedom.

 

 

Can't be that hard, look how many times Ny, Elayne, and Egwene have been captured or nearly captured.  Once in book 2, twice in book 3, etc...  The first time in the third book on way to Tear wasn't even by channelers.