This is actually about the two Forsaken who had particularly deadly brushes with Shadar Logoth: Sammael and Moghedien.

 

Sammael got swallowed by Mashadar in ACoS, yet in KoD Moridin describes Sammael (or a Forsaken who looks like Sammael) ordering Trollocs and Fades into the Ways.

 

If it was Sammael, how did he survive (or come back)? If it wasn't, then who was it?

 

Also, what exactly happened to Moghedien at the end of WH? I was under the impression that she got caught between the taint and Mashadar, but since she was clearly with Moridin in the same scene in KoD, she probably survived that as well. Unless she's a ghost... but nevermind.

 

Anyway, did anyone else find it odd?

Moggy wasn't even at Shadar Logoth proper, she was just off in the forest and refused to fight

 

Sammael and i quote "Is deader then a doornail" or however Robert Jordan said it

 

I do think he originally planned to brign sammael back, but at the same time he must have realized in the later books how much space that would take up and that he didnt have time for it. So he killed him off permanently.

 

 

Moghedien watched the "dome" with the taint collapse, and got caught in some turmoil caused by that collapsed. She got bumped around a bit,but nothing more than that.

 

Sammael is dead, and I am quite sure RJ did not have any plans to bring him back. The "Sammael" we heard of in KOD was planted before the real sammael died, after all.

So who is the "Sammael" in KoD? And what do you mean by him being "planted" before Sammael died? I don't recall anything about a fake Sammael prior to KoD.

So who is the "Sammael" in KoD? And what do you mean by him being "planted" before Sammael died? I don't recall anything about a fake Sammael prior to KoD.

 

Someone posed as the real Sammael.  This someone would have to have the ability to command hundreds of Myrrdraal--therefore, most likely a Forsaken.  It can't be Aran'gar, because the scene is in Aran'gar's POV, and it can't be Moridin.  Asides from the Forsaken, some have speculated Taim (as a Third Age Chosen) and even Fain (unlikely).

Even on the slim chance Taim was made Choosen and not just a dreadlord, doubt he has the skill to impersonate Sammael and considering Fain is kill on sight for the choosen doubt he would risk trying to impersonate Sammael and order trollocs.

Well it's also theorized that Taim was taught by Ishamael. His knowledge of how to test if men can channel, knowing that using too much of the power during the testing can harm the man being tested etc. There's more but i've forgotten it. It's certainly viable.

 

So if Ishamael did teach Taim he may well have taught him the weave to change his appearance.

The skill to impersonate Sammael...If only there was a weave that allowed you to change your appearance...Oh wait ;D

 

But the thing is, if Taim shows up having the Chosen mark, he would not have to make himself look like Sammael. Shadowspawn are forced to obey anyone with the mark, and if some of them actually knows what sammale really looks like, well, a Chosen has his own reasons for doing things, and questioning would mean suicide.

 

 

As for Fain, he is completely out of the question. He does not have the ability to give orders to 100000 shadowspawn.

Would think it would be the mark and not necessarily appearance is what takes to command the shadowspawn.  Since anyone could weave an illusion to look like a Forsaken then.  First does Taim even know what Sammael looks like?  Does he know enough to impersonate him?  If Taim was to try and have Rand killed again doubt he would rely just on trollocs and would toss in a few "renegades" from the tower.  This is why I think Taim is unlikely.

 

Most likely was one of the orginal Forsaken that did it. 

Sammael got swallowed by Mashadar in ACoS, yet in KoD Moridin describes Sammael (or a Forsaken who looks like Sammael) ordering Trollocs and Fades into the Ways.

 

Are you suggesting that Mashadar took control of Sammael, or something similar?  After making lunch out of him?

 

If so, I'm not sure how I feel about this.  On one hand RJ did specifically say that Sammy is toast, on another... well, we all know how he liked to twist things a bit.  I personally think that since this hasnt happened before it would be unlikely.

 

On the point of Sammael commanding the shadowspawn and the chosen mark:  I think it was debated before whether or not the chosen mark was specific to each chosen.  I dont agree with that.  From the context that Morridin talks about it I had the distinct feeling that any one of the chosen could have done it.  Which means it's not specific, but just a mark that gives the bearer control over shadowspawn.  Mask of Mirrors, and it could have been anyone of the original forsaken.  Quite sure that Mazrim would have sent more than just Mydraal and Trolloc's.  So I agree, not him.  Who it was, is anyone's guess.  ;)

Concerning Fain, I was simply posting concerning the theories out there.  I for one have no belief in him.  I only suggest Taim because Taim has a definite interest in killing Rand and he is a possibility for Slayer's mystery employer.

I only suggest Taim because Taim has a definite interest in killing Rand and he is a possibility for Slayer's mystery killer.

 

Did you mean Asmo's Mystery Killer?  I wont go into detail on the Asmo theory, just wanted to make sure I understood you right.  ;)

I only suggest Taim because Taim has a definite interest in killing Rand and he is a possibility for Slayer's mystery killer.

 

Did you mean Asmo's Mystery Killer?  I wont go into detail on the Asmo theory, just wanted to make sure I understood you right.  ;)

 

Oops.  I meant Slayer's mystery employer.  My bad.  I'm gonna modify that now.

Also, what exactly happened to Moghedien at the end of WH? I was under the impression that she got caught between the taint and Mashadar, but since she was clearly with Moridin in the same scene in KoD, she probably survived that as well. Unless she's a ghost... but nevermind.

 

I was really disappointed there wasn't more on what happaned to her, one moment she is being sucked away, then next book she is fine.

But the thing is, if Taim shows up having the Chosen mark, he would not have to make himself look like Sammael. Shadowspawn are forced to obey anyone with the mark, and if some of them actually knows what sammale really looks like, well, a Chosen has his own reasons for doing things, and questioning would mean suicide.

 

Whoever disguised themselves as Sammael did not do it in order to gain command of the Trollocs--the Mark alone saw to that, and whoever did this had the Mark. Thus whoever it was that did it disguised themselves as Sammael for the sole purpose that they not be recognized.

 

From there we must concider the reality of this attack--following the Cleansing in which both the Choedan Kal and Callandor was used, as well as in which the Forsaken faced the channelers around Rand in person, sending a hundred thousand trollocs to attack Rand is a stupid act. For any of the Forsaken, who had experience in what the Power can do against people in war, the outcome should have been clear--indeed, much clearer than it was. The fight ended up being close because neither of the sa'angreal were used, and the Forsaken would have no reason to think that would be the case, not after the Cleansing.

 

Beyond that, the attack is in clear defiance of Shadow mandate. For the Forsaken who survive, all of whom are subtle, intelligent people, the risk of acting on their own here so far outweighs the highly limited potential for gain that the attack shows.

 

Effectively, this attack does not make any sort of sense, not from any of the living Forsaken.

 

From Taim it does. To begin with we have the fact that it is stated that three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking Rand's location--which Logain did not tell him, but even if Taim hadn't been smart enough to place a man amongst Taim's men we know as a fact that the Aes Sedai are specifically acting to utilize the antagonism between Taim and Logain to weaken the Black Tower.

 

Three days after Logain returns to the Black Tower, Trollocs assault the manor--the exact amount of time it would take to get o the manor through the ways. Even more significant is that the attack matches Taim's blunt MO--the attack on the Sun Palace in tPoD for instance. Or for that matter the sending of the Grey Man in LoC, or the attack of Dumira.... This assault has Taim written all over it.

 

I was really disappointed there wasn't more on what happaned to her, one moment she is being sucked away, then next book she is fine.

 

Sucked along, not sucked away. When the dome collapsed it left a vacuum, but Moghedian was quite far away, the suction would not have pulled her even close to the gap.

Beyond that, the attack is in clear defiance of Shadow mandate. For the Forsaken who survive, all of whom are subtle, intelligent people, the risk of acting on their own here so far outweighs the highly limited potential for gain that the attack shows.

 

Effectively, this attack does not make any sort of sense, not from any of the living Forsaken.

 

Not true, Semi was more then willing to fireball Rand, against orders not to harm him.  Why should one fear to disguise themself and post orders as Sammael?  The reason it did fail was LTT took over, had he not took over and made those weaves was a decent chance it may of succeeded. As we have seen time and time again, the forsaken are more then willing to toss the lives of trollocs away for no apparent reason. The three forsaken with the most reason to hide what they do are Lanfear, Mogi and Messana.  Another reason was most likely one of the orginal forsaken we know at least one of Rands followers is BA how many more BA or Darkfriends are there.  Any who could easily be forced to report Rand's location to the Forsaken.

 

On the really really slim chance Taim is choosen, I think people give Taim too much credit.  Abiltiy to pose as Sammael, order that many trollocs, knowledge of the ways.  He is still a novice in knowledge compared to the others.  Why Trollocs, Taim could send 50 of his students there by portal and level the place.

Not true, Semi was more then willing to fireball Rand, against orders not to harm him.

 

That was a bit more heat of the moment than ordering a hundred thousand trollocs into the ways to take him out if possible. Semirhage's original intention was to capture him. Beyond which nothing says she meant to kill him--yes she blew of his hand, but that fireball was fairly weak compared to what a channeler of her strength could achieve. She is an incredibly talented healer remember... maybe she only intended to cripple him. It seems unlikely her fireball would have killed him, even if he hadn't thrown the spear at it.

 

Why should one fear to disguise themself and post orders as Sammael? 

 

Disobeying the Dark One carry's some pretty heavy penalties. The majority of the higher up Forsaken during the War of the Shadow died at the Dark One's hand, not the Light's. That being said I've no doubt some of them would risk it if it showed a high chance of gain--as Semirhage did. But there was, from the perspective of the Forsaken, nothing to be gained from this other than a hundred thousand dead Trollocs.

 

The reason it did fail was LTT took over, had he not took over and made those weaves was a decent chance it may of succeeded.

 

True, but it should never have come that close. Had the Choedan Kal or Callandor been employed there would have been no danger at all--and the Forsaken would have expected Rand to employ both after they just had their butts kicked at the Cleansing. Which by the way I already stated.

 

As we have seen time and time again, the forsaken are more then willing to toss the lives of trollocs away for no apparent reason.

 

Opperative word, apparent. Which brings me back to the first point--they would not have risked acting against the Dark Ones policies without clear gain, and there was no gain whatsoever in this for any of the Forsaken.

 

The three forsaken with the most reason to hide what they do are Lanfear, Mogi and Messana.

 

Well, I don't agree there. All the Forsaken would hide their actions were they going against the Dark One's express orders. The Dark One's routine expression of disaproval being death, or more recently soultrapping.

 

I don't see how thats particularily relevant though.

 

Another reason was most likely one of the orginal forsaken we know at least one of Rands followers is BA how many more BA or Darkfriends are there.  Any who could easily be forced to report Rand's location to the Forsaken.

 

People all who could have betrayed Rand's location at any time over the time he was there, yet it was only after Taim became exposed to this information that an attack was launched--indeed, arriving as it did we know that it was sent shortly thereafter Taim was exposed to this information.

 

On the really really slim chance Taim is choosen, I think people give Taim too much credit.  Abiltiy to pose as Sammael, order that many trollocs, knowledge of the ways.  He is still a novice in knowledge compared to the others.  Why Trollocs, Taim could send 50 of his students there by portal and level the place.

 

Because Taim had to fear the Shadow as well as the Light. The no-kill order was policy amongst the Shadow, had fifty Asha'men killed Rand the culprit would have been immediately obvious.

 

The ability to pose as Sammael we know he posses. Mask of Mirrors is known amongst the Asha'men. The ability to order Trollocs is given by the Chosen Mark, which if he is Chosen he has, and the number of Trollocs doesn't matter.  The knowledge of the ways is unnesasary--we know the Myrrdraal have that knowledge, he need merely have given the command and let the Myrdraal take care of it.

 

Beyond all this, you've addressed only one minor comment in my argument--you make the statement that you reguard the chances of Taim being raised chosen as 'very very slim', yet you don't even address all the points? Care to do that?

The ability to pose as Sammael we know he posses. Mask of Mirrors is known amongst the Asha'men. The ability to order Trollocs is given by the Chosen Mark, which if he is Chosen he has, and the number of Trollocs doesn't matter.  The knowledge of the ways is unnesasary--we know the Myrrdraal have that knowledge, he need merely have given the command and let the Myrdraal take care of it.

 

When have we seen Taim use mask of mirrors, no proof this is common knowledge with the Asha'man.  We don't know if anything Rand has taught his Asha'man has been spread about. And since most the world has no idea what Taim looks like he wouldn't of needed it to recruit.

 

That was a bit more heat of the moment than ordering a hundred thousand trollocs into the ways to take him out if possible. Semirhage's original intention was to capture him. Beyond which nothing says she meant to kill him--yes she blew of his hand, but that fireball was fairly weak compared to what a channeler of her strength could achieve. She is an incredibly talented healer remember... maybe she only intended to cripple him. It seems unlikely her fireball would have killed him, even if he hadn't thrown the spear at it.

 

I doubt she was aiming for his hand.  He stuck his hand out to stop it from hitting him. I really don't think someone launches a fireball at someone just to knock them off their horse.  Better and less lethal ways to do that.  As Mr Ares would say "how do you know what a fireball that size would do, care to be a test subject?"  ;D  Hope I quoted you right Mr. Ares.

 

Beyond all this, you've addressed only one minor comment in my argument--you make the statement that you reguard the chances of Taim being raised chosen as 'very very slim', yet you don't even address all the points? Care to do that?

 

Your posts are usally way too long for me to remember half what you have posted in them.

 

 

Opperative word, apparent. Which brings me back to the first point--they would not have risked acting against the Dark Ones policies without clear gain, and there was no gain whatsoever in this for any of the Forsaken.

 

There is a gain for them, whatever the DO or Mordin says they don't want Rand alive in the slim chance he is named nae'bliss (or how ever you spell that).  They want Rand dead so there is no chance they have to share power with him.  I think some of their pov's make it clear if the chance comes up some will kill him.

 

 

Well, I don't agree there. All the Forsaken would hide their actions were they going against the Dark One's express orders. The Dark One's routine expression of disaproval being death, or more recently soultrapping.

 

I don't see how thats particularily relevant though.

 

It is relevant since those 3 have almost no room for failure anymore.  They have all messed up and been severly punished for it.  They are walking a thin rope with the DO.  Do you think Lanfear has given up wanting Rand dead?  She doesn't have a lot of freedom or things to work with so if the chance came up to hide her identity and send some Trollocs after Rand, think she would pass the chance up? 

 

People all who could have betrayed Rand's location at any time over the time he was there, yet it was only after Taim became exposed to this information that an attack was launched--indeed, arriving as it did we know that it was sent shortly thereafter Taim was exposed to this information.

 

I honestly don't remember Taim finding out where Rand was.  Anyone know the chapter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

When have we seen Taim use mask of mirrors, no proof this is common knowledge with the Asha'man.  We don't know if anything Rand has taught his Asha'man has been spread about. And since most the world has no idea what Taim looks like he wouldn't of needed it to recruit.

Whether or not the Asha'man know the Mask of Mirrors has no bearing on whether Taim does.  Also, Rand has not taught the Asha'man anything.  That's Taim's job.  As for Taim's appearance, I would assume that a Saldaean man with dragons on his sleeves would ring a bell in most people's minds...

 

I doubt she was aiming for his hand.  He stuck his hand out to stop it from hitting him. I really don't think someone launches a fireball at someone just to knock them off their horse.  Better and less lethal ways to do that.  As Mr Ares would say "how do you know what a fireball that size would do, care to be a test subject?"   ;D  Hope I quoted you right Mr. Ares.

Regardless, Semirhage's disguise had been broken, so the element of surprise was gone.  She had to act quickly to catch Rand.  I agree, a fireball is a strange choice, but like Luckers said, it was in the heat of the moment.

 

Your posts are usally way too long for me to remember half what you have posted in them.

But you don't need to remember when you use this handy quote method...  Unless you forget things right after you read them, that's not an excuse at all.

 

There is a gain for them, whatever the DO or Mordin says they don't want Rand alive in the slim chance he is named nae'bliss (or how ever you spell that).  They want Rand dead so there is no chance they have to share power with him.  I think some of their pov's make it clear if the chance comes up some will kill him.

Nae'blis, btw.  Yes, they want him dead.  They are also candidates for the Trolloc attack, but this alone does not eliminate Taim as a suspect.  Taim wants Rand dead every bit as much as any Forsaken, maybe more so.

 

It is relevant since those 3 have almost no room for failure anymore.  They have all messed up and been severly punished for it.  They are walking a thin rope with the DO.  Do you think Lanfear has given up wanting Rand dead?  She doesn't have a lot of freedom or things to work with so if the chance came up to hide her identity and send some Trollocs after Rand, think she would pass the chance up? 

Lanfear's MO is not sending Trollocs to do her work.  She acts on her own, without using proxies or minions.  As for Moghedien, she never demonstrated a need to kill Rand.  Neither did Mesaana.  In fact, Mesaana is likely the creator of the White Tower plan to capture him.  Moghedien and Lanfear would be taking quite the risk, acting on their own volition in killing Rand. If Moridin disagrees with their actions... that's the end of their free will.

But you don't need to remember when you use this handy quote method...  Unless you forget things right after you read them, that's not an excuse at all.

 

Not sure why you are concerned with this.

 

Regardless, Semirhage's disguise had been broken, so the element of surprise was gone.  She had to act quickly to catch Rand.  I agree, a fireball is a strange choice, but like Luckers said, it was in the heat of the moment.

 

Still shows that she was more then willing to disobey orders.  Panic or not she was trying to blast Rand.  Plus as calm as Semi is, she hardly seems like the panic type.

 

Lanfear's MO is not sending Trollocs to do her work.  She acts on her own, without using proxies or minions.  As for Moghedien, she never demonstrated a need to kill Rand.  Neither did Mesaana.  In fact, Mesaana is likely the creator of the White Tower plan to capture him.  Moghedien and Lanfear would be taking quite the risk, acting on their own volition in killing Rand. If Moridin disagrees with their actions... that's the end of their free will.

 

Which is why the use of the disguise.  I only pointed out those 3 as the ones who would need to use the most secrecy to send the trollocs.  I can't see Mesaana or Mogi doing it, but Lanfear I could.  She wants Rand dead and would use any means to do it since she can't use her normal means anymore without upsetting Moridin.

 

Whether or not the Asha'man know the Mask of Mirrors has no bearing on whether Taim does.  Also, Rand has not taught the Asha'man anything.  That's Taim's job.  As for Taim's appearance, I would assume that a Saldaean man with dragons on his sleeves would ring a bell in most people's minds...

 

Point is people assume alot about Taim.  There is no proof he knows mask of mirrors, or if he is a choosen, dread lord, or asha'man version of BA. Its a big step IMO to say Taim is choosen, disguising himself as Sammael and sending out a 100,000 trollocs.  I would hope RJ would of tossed in a little hint or something that a new choosen is about.  Taim is known to well in Saldaea. Anywhere else he can give any name and just say recruiting for the Dragon Reborn. Rand might not actively teach his Asha'man anything, but anything he does that they can see they can learn.  We have no idea what Taim teaches his students in their special classes.

 

Maybe someone has more info from something they asked RJ.

When have we seen Taim use mask of mirrors, no proof this is common knowledge with the Asha'man.  We don't know if anything Rand has taught his Asha'man has been spread about. And since most the world has no idea what Taim looks like he wouldn't of needed it to recruit.

 

He was known to Aes Sedai, which would have been the major threat to him in recruiting. Enough reason for him to have been told.

 

I doubt she was aiming for his hand.  He stuck his hand out to stop it from hitting him. I really don't think someone launches a fireball at someone just to knock them off their horse.  Better and less lethal ways to do that.  As Mr Ares would say "how do you know what a fireball that size would do, care to be a test subject?"    Hope I quoted you right Mr. Ares.

 

I doubt she did either--and you are correct that we do not have a scientific basis to determine what the degree of damage would have been--but we do have a logical one. A channeler as strong as Semirhage could have created a fireball the size of a horse with the exact same speed as she made the one she threw at Rand. If her reaction were purely defensive and instinctive she would have done so--indeed, it would have aided her as the explosion would have effected Rand's companions as well as him.

 

Therefore, deductively, we know she limited her response. Why, if not to leave Rand alive?

 

As for your other point, about their being other ways of knocking someone off a horse. Firstly, Rand as not on a horse. Secondly, her major intention there would not have been to knock Rand down, but to drop him out of the fight. She needed to incapacitate him long enough so that she could deal with his companions.

 

With that premise in mind, we must also be aware that she was shocked. She undoubtedly had pre-woven inverted methods of incapacitating Rand and his companions so that she could collar them. Weaves that were destroyed in a way she was not even aware were possible. She had to react instantly to that. That, combined with her desire to gain control of Rand, means immediately getting him out of the fight. Shielding him, even if it were possible, would have demanded all of her strength which would have left her open to his companions. From there the only option was to cause him enough pain that he couldn't channel, and the ways of doing that without damage are too complex for a shocked woman, no matter how capable.

 

Now, yes, knocking him unconcious with a flow of air might have worked--though not for sure. I saw someone get a bowling ball dropped on his head from the top of a bookshelf whilst he was kneeling and he didn't get knocked out, or even groggy. Semirhage, as a physician, would have known the unreliability of trying to knock someone out. Causing him direct pain was a much more reliable method. And again she knew her abilities as a healer.

 

There is a gain for them, whatever the DO or Mordin says they don't want Rand alive in the slim chance he is named nae'bliss (or how ever you spell that).  They want Rand dead so there is no chance they have to share power with him.  I think some of their pov's make it clear if the chance comes up some will kill him.

 

But that's no gain, because from their perspective there was only an incredibly slight chance that they'd be successful in killing Rand. Which is not enough reason to risk the Dark One's rather incredible wrath. All of which I've already said.

 

It is relevant since those 3 have almost no room for failure anymore.  They have all messed up and been severly punished for it.  They are walking a thin rope with the DO.  Do you think Lanfear has given up wanting Rand dead?  She doesn't have a lot of freedom or things to work with so if the chance came up to hide her identity and send some Trollocs after Rand, think she would pass the chance up? 

 

Absolutely. It would be stupid of her to do so, which again ive said and you've as yet to address. The chance for success is so low that NONE of the forsaken should have risked the repercussions of defying the Dark One's direct command, especially those three.

 

I don't disagree with your premise--which, again, ive stated. If the chosen saw a chance for actual personal gain they'd disobey the Dark One. My contention, once again, is that none of the Forsaken would have actually seen the potential for success or gain in this plan. It makes no sense for any of them--even the desperate ones.

 

I honestly don't remember Taim finding out where Rand was.  Anyone know the chapter?

 

I addressed that too. I doesn't bother me that you don't read me fully--i know im wordy. It might answer some of your questions though--or at least lead us into a dialogue about these issues. Up to you though.

 

Still shows that she was more then willing to disobey orders.  Panic or not she was trying to blast Rand.  Plus as calm as Semi is, she hardly seems like the panic type.

 

I don't think she paniced. She was caught by surprise, and still managed to act with foresight, but it was nevertheless a hasty reaction. Beyond that as ive stated she wasn't trying to blast Rand--she clearly held back, her intention therefore was not to simply destroy him. And, it's probably redundent by now, but we never suggested the Forsaken would not disobey orders.

 

 

 

 

But you don't need to remember when you use this handy quote method...  Unless you forget things right after you read them, that's not an excuse at all.

Not sure why you are concerned with this.

 

'Twas your excuse for not addressing all of Luckers' argument...

 

Beyond all this, you've addressed only one minor comment in my argument--you make the statement that you reguard the chances of Taim being raised chosen as 'very very slim', yet you don't even address all the points? Care to do that?

 

Your posts are usally way too long for me to remember half what you have posted in them.