Ok the Aiel are to be punished for breaking the way of the leaf by doing violence.  In the Big White Book it says "a group abandoned their vow of service in favor of their own future."  "They decided that guardianship of the Aes Sedai relics was a hopeless mission and went in search for the old song and were considered "lost" by the rest of the Aiel.  this spplinter group was the begining of the Tuatha'an".

 

Doesn't this mean the Tuatha'an also failed the Aes Sedai?  Though they stick to the way of the leaf, they did abandon their covenant to the Aes Sedai.   So one would think there is some sort of bad thing coming for them.

It's kind of superstition to believe that something bad is to come to the Aiel because they broke their vow to follow the Way of the Leaf. It is equal superstition to believe something bad is going to happen to the Tinkers because they failed to uphold their oath to the Aes Sedai.

 

There is no greater being watching these oaths and making sure they're upheld. No boogie man is going to jump out of the shadows and attack because they decided to go a different way. Though, superstition holds.

There is no greater being watching these oaths and making sure they're upheld. No boogie man is going to jump out of the shadows and attack because they decided to go a different way. Though, superstition holds.

 

Except of course the pattern does exactly that. If you fight the pattern (your destiny) it will fight back to make you do what you must.

 

 

The Aiel see themselves as havinf sailed the Aides Sadie, in fact they failed only themselves in giving up the way of the leaf. The entire journey that they get sent by the Aides Sadie was meant to protect them by getting them out of harms way. That the Aides Sadie wanted the Terrengail safeguarded was of secondary importance. Thus the Ail and the Tinkers did not really fail the Aides Sadie. At most they failed themselves by failing to keep the oath to safeguard the Terrengasil (the Tinkers) and abandoning the way of the leaf (the Aiel).  Moreover as both were required in order to set up the preconditions to the fulfillment of the prophecies the "failures" speak of human necessity and not moral corruption.

 

Thus the Ail and the Tinkers did not really fail the Aides Sadie. At most they failed themselves by failing to keep the oath to safeguard the Terrengasil (the Tinkers) and abandoning the way of the leaf (the Aiel).  Moreover as both were required in order to set up the preconditions to the fulfillment of the prophecies the "failures" speak of human necessity and not moral corruption

 

The Aiel say they failed the Aes Sedai and if they do it again they will be destroyed and now they know hat that failure was.  But are the Tinkers part of any prophecy though?  They turned their back on the Aes Sedai, but by them doing that did it set the preconditons for a prophecy?  So they did fail in their duty as Aiel as servants of the Aes Sedai.  Sad the Jenn were the only ones to do their duty and for their trouble they get to die out.

Except of course the pattern does exactly that. If you fight the pattern (your destiny) it will fight back to make you do what you must.

 

For the most part, the Wheel does not play an influential role in the lives of the majority of people. The Wheel only truly interferes in the lives of those who are of importance to events. Like ta'veren.

 

So no. No evidence of the Aiel superstition being true exists because it is that, superstition.

Except of course the pattern does exactly that. If you fight the pattern (your destiny) it will fight back to make you do what you must.

 

The Pattern would do so immediately.  That is, no great divergence from the future is allowed.  There is no curse that will descend upon the helpless Tinkers for any mistakes they have made.

Except of course the pattern does exactly that. If you fight the pattern (your destiny) it will fight back to make you do what you must.

 

The Pattern would do so immediately.  That is, no great divergence from the future is allowed.  There is no curse that will descend upon the helpless Tinkers for any mistakes they have made.

 

The Aiel did what the patten wanted them to do if they had not then there would be NO Dragonand the darness would cover the land.

They turned their back on the Aes Sedai, but by them doing that did it set the preconditons for a prophecy?

 

At the time, they did not know whether there were any Aides Sadie left alive, so it was much more a pragmatic choice to stay alive and return to what thet were. We have no proof that Tinkers are mentioned in the prophecies but in retaining the way of the leaf and seeking the "song" they set up the possibility that (possibly with Perrin's help) that the "song" will be found and a return to their Jenn Ail ways is possible.

 

[iSo no. No evidence of the Aiel superstition being true exists because it is that, superstition.][/i]

 

It is not a superstition it is more of a prophetic vision.

Where did that quote come from? Who said it, what's the context, etc.?

 

Then again, it could very well be that you're right. I vaguely recall it being a prophecy now that you mention it.

 

But if it is an Aiel prophecy and not just some silly superstition, then alright.

What about Aram, he gave up the way of the leaf and look how he ended up

I, personally, have only contempt for the Tinkers.  Blind aka. Suicidal pacifism will get you killed which to my mind is not a good thing.

Well some of it is prophecy from the Aes Sedai at Rhudiean.

 

Maybe never finding the song is the tinkers punsihement.

Well some of it is prophecy from the Aes Sedai at Rhudiean.

 

The Aes Sedai at Rhuidean never spoke of failing the Aes Sedai again being a condition set in prophecy. It's a cultural belief--and indeed one we know to not be prophecy. The Wise Ones would not have so completely turned on Aes Sedai if they were concerned that it would lead to the destruction of their people.

 

Technically, as well, the Aes Sedai intended only to see the Aiel safe, the ter'angreal mission was a smoke screen, so whilst the Aiel thought they'd failed the Aes Sedai, both they and the Tuatha'an fulfilled the Aes Sedai's primrary wish.

Sorry, didn't mean the Aes Sedai said them failing was prophecy, just that the Aes Sedai spoke to them of prophecy at Rhuidean.

 

But their foretold destruction is because they abandoned the Way of the Leaf.  Rand is their salvation and punishment.

 

Sorry, didn't mean the Aes Sedai said them failing was prophecy, just that the Aes Sedai spoke to them of prophecy at Rhuidean.

 

But their foretold destruction is because they abandoned the Way of the Leaf.  Rand is their salvation and punishment.

 

 

Well... i sort of have to disagree. Some of the impact in their 'distruction' involves revelations about the Way--as much involves having men who can channel being safe there by completely disrupting the distribution of gender power between Chiefs and Wise Ones. Or the fact that travelling and their current interaction with the Westland cultures means that their cultural seclusion is at an end. Their confrontation with the Aes Sedai will play its part too.

 

Rand is their catalyst. He neither punishes nor saves, he simply... stirs up.

 

In any case none of this will impact on the Tinkers.

I agree the destruction is partly their society will never be the same and  involves a remnant of a remnant surviving.  Their change was necessary though doubt the Aes Sedai at the time thought that.  What would the world be like had they stayed true to the Way of the Leaf?

 

The Tinkers saw their task as being pointless and just stopped doing it and left.  To me that is worse then what the Aiel did, who wished only to protect themselves.  That is why I am hoping something bad is in their future. 

 

 

In my mind, that the Tinkers stuck to the Way of the Leaf is admirable.  Not practical, but remarkable considering the times they lived in.  Some of the Way of the Leaf is still evident in Aiel society (gai'shain, and the ji in capturing gai'shain), but they abandoned their beliefs.  That is not to say that I don't admire the Aiel society, though.  Just I do not see the reason for the hatred for the Tinkers.

Tuatha'an.

Aiel.

Rhuidean.

The Way of the Leaf.

The Song.

Failing the Aes Sedai.

 

THIS is MY kind of thread!!!

 

Rand got to see what the Aiel were like in the Age of Legends when he went through the glass columns.  He witnessed how meek they were when the man accidentally knocked one of them down on the street and was embarrassed beyond belief.  He saw how revered they were when the Aiel were getting ready to leave and the leader entered the Hall of Servants to speak openly with Aes Sedai (and the Green Man).  He witnessed first hand how an elderly Aiel could be lynched and his son/grandson (can't remember) only felt sorrow (no desire for vengence).  The scene where the Aiel were singing with the Ogier while the Nym danced to start the crops growing gave Rand a chance to hear part of the Song.  The other part was heard when thousands of Aiel were lined up around the perimeter of the city trying to ward off the male Aes Sedai who had gone mad.  Those two scenes showed Rand the value of the Song and the fact that only the Aiel could perform it properly as a group.  As a side note about the song, it is stated several times in the series that modern day male Aiel reserve singing for death drones and battle marches...they never sing otherwise...which probably is because they used to be such valuable singers in the Age of Legends.  As you can tell, this is one of my favorite subjects in the entire series.  I really hope in AMoL that the modern day Aiel and the Tuatha'an find a way to enter the glass columns together and come out the other side as Jenn Aiel who are able to sing to the crops again.  Also, Loial (pronounced loyal?) needs to visit Rhuidean to sing to the Tree that was damaged to bring it back to vitality so clippings can be planted and the streets of Rhuidean can know the peace that existed in the Age of Legends under those branches.  No, I haven't been smoking anything...I'm just wierd.  ;D