While rereading for the umpteenth time, I noticed in the Great Hunt that Barthanes was ripped to shreds, and it points very likely to the Gholem. We know that the Gholem has under control of Samael initially. We know that Thom killed the King of Carahienen, Galladrin, but that didn't occur until after Barthanes was dead and after the grain warehouses were torched. So the question being, what motive did Samael have in killing the most powerful noble, because he couldn't have planned on Thom killing the king and starting a civil war.

 

So this is my question to you, why was Barthanes killed?

unlikely he was killed by gholem. It was fain. As to why well who knows? May be he pissed of fain somehow

unlikely he was killed by gholem. It was fain. As to why well who knows? May be he pissed of fain somehow

 

 

No it was not fain. Fain had already left through the waygate well before Barthanes was killed (Read the timeline -- Rand shows up at the manor, Hurin investigates and finds the trail going through the waygate. Rand speaks with Barthanes, Thom arrives in the early morning finds Dena dead, Fain is long gone before it happens. It was not Fain, and his body being ripped to shreds speaks of the Gholem (we know that it did this before with Harid Fel).

Maybe Sammael's initial plan was to take Barthanes identity and accend to the throne in Cairhien, but it fell through, so he moved to the next city and became Lord Brend instead.

Maybe Sammael's initial plan was to take Barthanes identity and accend to the throne in Cairhien, but it fell through, so he moved to the next city and became Lord Brend instead.

 

I never considered that before but it's possible, Sammael has always been described as short.

I always assumed that it was Thom who killed Barthanes after he did in Galldrian, never really second guessed that till we saw descriptions of the Gholam's victims.

I assumed it was a myrrdraal, who got pissed off that he let fain wander off

Didn't the Shaido Wise Ones once use the OP to rip someone to shreds? So... It could have been Verin?

I also assumed it was a Myrddraal. But the gholam also makes sense.

Some kind of Shadowspawn seems certain. Whether Myrddraal or Gholam, I am not sure.

It could have simply been punishment for failing to capture Fain. The forsaken wouldn't care that he couldn't have known he was supposed to capture him.

Failure to capture Fain seems to be a poor reason for Barthanes's death. That was relatively soon after Fain's escape from Fal Dara.

The Shadow probably had plenty of time to do whatever to Fain while Fain was at Fal Dara.

Except they did, mb, they sent a fade to get him and bring him back. Unfortunately he turned the tables on the fade and was able to go his own insane way. After that the shadow would have wanted him back even more, a normal human couldn't possibly force a fade to their will, so whatever he was is a threat to them, and something they need to deal with. Thus, Barthanes letting him go would have annoyed them, and people have been killed for less.

It seems to me that the Shadow always commands its followers beforehand either in person or through dream/Telaranrhiod.

Though if Barthanes was at the Darkfriend meeting in the Prologue, these instructions might have been told to him then.

It wasn't the Gholam; Sammael didn't find it until months and months after the death in question. I am thinking Ishamael probably just killed him in a fit of rage for letting Rand escape and whatnot, especially if he was present at the darkfriend meeting. Look at what Moridin did to that random darkfriend in TPoD, and Ishy was prone to alot more rages then Moridin.

Alternatively (wild off screen speculation here), the Gholam's stasis box might have been found by Barthanes, who was saving it for a special occasion. Basically, meddling with something he didn't really understand and operating under the assumption that as a high ranking darkfriend it'd obey him. He turns it on according to the manual, and it doesn't go as expected... for him.

I always thought that it was Ingtar who killed him.

I actually suggested, just after tGS came out, that it was Verin. The One Power give the ability to rip someone limb from limb, and Verin would almost certainly have questions for Barthanes--as she states, she is very methodical, and Barthanes role was hardly examined properly. Furthermore it would not be a violation of her Oath--Barthanes helping Fain was against the Great Lord.

 

She could easily have slipped out in the night, gone back, and killed him.

 

But I do agree its either Verin or the Gholam. Ingtar, Myrdraal... they lack the strength to rip someone limb from limb.

where is it said that a myrdraal would lack the strength?

where is it said that a myrdraal would lack the strength?

 

Does it need to be said? Myrdraal aren't supernaturally strong. Fain chains one with relative ease.

I think you might want to reread that passage Luckers, Fain calculated how strong it should have been and then either doubled or tripled it (I don't have the book with me so I'm unsure). And even then the fade got close to escaping.

I am gonna have to go with Luckers with this. A myrdraal couldnt do that, doesnt have the strength.

 

Not sure about the fain part, fain has some neat powers, even back then, so i am not sure about that as evidence.

 

But when do the books mention Myrddraal having superhuman strength? They are fast and smooth, but I cant remember anything to say they are strong enough to rip someone to pieces.

 

Therefore, to use White Ajah logic, it is logical to assume that, since it wasnt mentioned (correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure) then it is safe to assume that Myrddraal have no exceptional strength.

I think it makes sense that fades are super strong, they are of the same basic genetics as trollocs, thus have a comparable strength