"Callandor will be but one fulfillment of The Karaethon Cycle, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the Prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all.What does it mean that he 'shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf'? What does it meant that he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle."

 

 

I like this quote because it gives us context for the future of Randland. The two most important things that went wrong in the vision Aviendha saw for the future were the role of the Aiel and the collaring of channelers. Both resolutions are suggested in this quote. The Aiel must return to the Way of the Leaf, and Tuon must take an Oath.

 

An interesting question—and one I think will inevitably cause continuity problems, and would have even if RJ had written it—is the question of how those prophecies were fulfilled in the future that Aviendha saw. These two, however, are not very problematic. In fact, the future Aviendha saw is a more literal interpretation of the Aiel quote, and a more allegorical interpretation of the second.

 

Many people have a problem seeing how the damane issue can be resolved by the end of the book. I have come to believe that there are two elements at play that will satisfactorily resolve it. One is the way Seanchan are essentially brainwashed to view the Empress as a sort of deity; this gives Tuon the absolute optimal position from which to make this sort of change happen very quickly. The other important element is the binder.

 

 

"Traveling boxes? What is your game there? Do they hold captives? If you think I will teach them Compulsion, erase it from your mind. One of those women was not negligible. I will not risk strength and skill residing together, in her, or in someone she teaches. Or do you have a binder hidden away with your other toys?"

 

 

And Sammael did, which is how Sevanna ended up with Galina. The first reference to 'binding' was in LOC, also with Sammael and Graendal, and then Semirhage told her own story about how she joined the Shadow to avoid being bound. The Oath Rod is a binder.

 

This is a theme that spans the entire series. The Oath Rod was not mentioned by name until TDR, but the concept was introduced in TEOTW, and it was explained in TGH:

 

 

"One other [ter'angreal] we have in the Tower makes oaths binding. When you are raised to full sisterhood, you will take your final vows holding that ter'angreal. To speak no word that is not true. To make no weapon for one man to kill another. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister."

 

Nynaeve shook her head. It sounded either like too much to swear or too little, and she said so.

   

"Once, Aes Sedai were not required to swear oaths. It was known what Aes Sedai were and what they stood for, and there was no need for more. Many of us wish it were so still. But the Wheel turns, and the times change. That we swear these oaths, that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power, against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands, and we can still do what we can against the Shadow."

 

 

Overlooking the irony in Sheriam's words, and the fact that she can lie (she would not lie about something like this to an Accepted, I don't think; I'm just trying to avoid stupid arguments), this explains why the Aes Sedai "bind themselves like criminals".

 

This is the same book where the Seanchan were introduced. The same book where Egwene was captured and made damane. The same book where that practice was explained:

 

 

Egwene shivered, though the air was not very cold. Pulling her cloak up onto her shoulders, her hand brushed the leash, and she jerked at it fitfully. "This is a horrible thing. How can you do this to anyone? What diseased mind ever thought of it?"

   

The blue-eyed sul'dam with the empty leash growled, "This one could do without her tongue already, Renna."

   

Renna only smiled patiently. "How is it horrible? Could we allow anyone to run loose who can do what a damane can? Sometimes men are born who would be marath'damane if they were women – it is so here also, I have heard – and they must be killed, of course, but the women do not go mad. Better for them to become damane than make trouble contending for power. As for the mind that first thought of the a'dam, it was the mind of a woman who called herself Aes Sedai."

   

Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor – he was not Emperor then, of course – since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a'dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured."

 

 

Themes, themes, themes. Renna is dead, and it was Mat who ordered her death. Seta—not the other sul'dam here, but the one who held Egwene's a'dam more often than anyone aside from Renna—went with Joline and Teslyn to Tar Valon to become a novice. Tuon knows about all of this. It was Tuon who chastised Mat for mourning a traitor after Renna's death. She doesn't know about Tuli, but I'm sure she will learn soon enough. She allowed Mat to take the a'dam away from her when she sought to punish the Aes Sedai for annoying her, and her conversations with Setalle Anan have convinced her on a few points. But she insists that she also scored some points with Setalle. Most likely, those points are along the lines of there being a need to check the sort of power that channelers can wield.

 

During the Breaking, the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends were separated by an ocean and by the loss of Traveling. Both the White Tower and the fiefdoms of the Seanchan continent were descended from those Aes Sedai. They took different approaches to dealing with men who could channel, and they took very different approaches to containing and therefore maintaining their own power. The White Tower adopted the Three Oaths, the first one being for the purpose of disarmament, and later, the "First Oath" (named so not for chronology but for importance) to regain the trust of the rulers of Randland, diminished by Tetsuan's betrayal of Manetheren.

 

While I believe it is theoretically quite possible for Tuon to make major public moves toward freeing the damane by the end of the book, and will not be surprised if that's how it goes down, for those who think the Seanchan would simply revolt in a situation like that, it's also possibly that Tuon will simply swear on an Oath Rod to do everything in her power to free them as quickly as possible after the Last Battle. She might also swear to serve Rand explicitly, but even if she does not, the Oath to free the damane implies a bargaining concession, and Rand did say that this was the one point he would not concede. Tuon making this concession is, in effect, serving Rand. But she might even swear three oaths on the rod, and they could be a lot of things.

 

It's certainly possible to interpret this prophecy less literally, but I think the argument for a literal interpretation is very strong. The Oath Rod has been a major bone of controversy for the entire story. Certainly the Wise Ones don't seem to need Oaths to be respected and trusted by their people. The Sea Folk have their own way of keeping their channelers in line; every single one of them has to take orders from a non-channeler. Siuan's arguments for the Oath Rod were similar to Sheriam's, and she managed to convince Egwene that they were necessary, but when compared to the damane situation, the Oath Rod seems like a compromise, and while some of us would like to see them do away with the Oaths, I think this is a cultural change that won't happen overnight. The damane situation is different, mostly because the Seanchan decided to invade a land with free channelers, and cultural shocks like that lead to rapid change, much more rapid than the oft-made comparison to American slavery.

 

So, how does it happen?

 

 

Feeding on fear, her dreams became worse. The two strange women she had been seeing In Tel'aran'rhiod caught her and dragged her before a table full of hooded women, and when they took off their hoods, every one was Liandrin, the Black sister who had captured her in Tear. A hard-faced Seanchan woman handed her a silvery bracelet and necklace connected by a silvery leash, an a'dam. That made her cry out; Seanchan had put an a'dam on her once. She would die before letting it happen again.

 

 

The hard-faced Seanchan woman is no doubt Egeanin. And while I am tempted to believe that Egwene will collar Tuon, I think it more likely (due to other prophecies) that she will collar Seta (again), just to show the Seanchan that sul'dam can be collared. It is very difficult to maintain slavery when your means for maintaining it, and even your justification for maintaining it, are shown to be illusory. That is how this change can happen quickly.

Interesting idea. I never thought of this possibility. What I thought was that the damane will be the ones to swear something on the oath rod in the future (same as Aes Sedai do now) to make them safe in the eyes of the Seanchan. A you say, making the channelers safe is the primary reason the Seanchan see a need to collar them. I still think that this is how it will most likely work out. Tuon still doesn't believe in the Aes Sedai oaths (which is really dumb of her given the evidence of the Aes Sedai damane) and we know she'll find a way to subvert them and make the Aes Sedai use OP as a weapon. But I think there will be something involving the rod to make her believe which should help in changing her mind on the damane issue. Copies of Mat's medallion might be involved too, say to give those in power protection against channelers.

 

I do find interesting the idea that Rand binding the nine moons to serve him might literally mean that Tuon will swear on the rod herself. I don't know why this would be necessary though. Tuon sets a huge store by keeping her oaths. As much as Mat I would say. Why would an oath on the oath rod be required? Rand never had anything to do with the oath rod and was ready to believe Tuon without it. But the wording of that prophecy is certainly fascinating so perhaps the rod will be involved somehow although I doubt it. But even if it does I don't believe it will be some kind of general promise to make everything in her power to free the damane. I don't know how effective the rod can be for such vague things. The oaths on the rod we saw thus far are very direct and very specific. If the rod is involved at all in Rand dealing with Tuon I rather see it being used in some fashion to convince Tuon that the oaths on the rod really do work.

 

 

As for Egwene collaring Tuon, I don't see this happening. Egwene doesn't want anything to do with the a'dam and I don't see her collaring anybody ever again. She did it very briefly in tGH but I think that was it.

 

I thought that perhaps Tuon might collar Egwene. Egwene faced the a'dam in the dream and dealt with it there but it's clear she is not done with the subject and must still deal with it in the waking world too. It would be a nice test of wills too. But a recent comment by BS (he was not sure if an a'dam will stop a dreamwalker from channeling in a dream) suggests that this likely won't happen either or if it does, it will be for a very short time.

Edited December 16, 201213 yr by herid

Yeah, I assume that the Oath Rod will be a compromise for the collar in general; I just think that Tuon is logically the first step, and since we probably won't see the damane all freed in AMOL, Tuon's Oath might be all we see. As for her not believing in the Oaths, she's had plenty of experience with them by now so she has to be close to seeing the truth. There are several Aes Sedai damane, and she also has Sevanna, who can testify about the binder she used on Galina.

 

I don't think Rand will require the Oath so much as Egwene will. The rod is effective enough even for vague things; if Tuon says she will do everything in her power to accomplish something, she won't be able to get around it unless she can convince herself that it's not in her power to do. And yes, she will probably agree to it for no other reason than to observe for herself how the rod works.

 

PS—Tuon could also simply take the First Oath, and then make that promise. And the First Oath would not inconvenience her too much as she has a Voice to speak things for her when she wants to be misleading.

Edited December 16, 201213 yr by Terez

There are already damane bound to the Oath Rod, the one's who were captured by the Seanchan during the attack on the White Tower. That leads me to believe that the Seanchan and the damane themselves will all have to be bound to the Oath Rod at some point. Not to mention by the sounds of it, there is more then one Oath Rod in the world that can be used, but all could bind the women to the same rules the Aes Sedai have. But at the same time, the Dragon Reborn will break all bonds, ties and oaths as part of prophecy, so I question whether or not the Seanchan ultimately will have to bind their oaths to Rand, along with the Aes Sedai.

There were damane bound to the oath rod long before the WT attack. Also what do you mean the "Seanchan and damane" will all have to be bound? It would not work on sul'dam if that is where you are going.

Edited December 16, 201213 yr by Suttree

It might work on sul'dam, particularly those who can be held by an a'dam.

It might work on sul'dam, particularly those who can be held by an a'dam.

Wouldn't they have to have an open connection to the source not just be on the edge? Much like how they won't slow and can't be stilled until they step over?

Edited December 16, 201213 yr by Suttree

I don't think you could get Tuon to swear an oath on the Oath Rod by her free will. For her to be forced to do such a thing would be the greatest insult anyone could give her. Tuon keeps her word she doesn't need any oaths.

 

I really don't have any idea what will convince Tuon to give up the practice of damane. She is already aware that she can learn to channel and if she is careful how she spreads that knowledge she could even continue with the practice. Her rationale that while she can learn to channel that she chooses not to just like she chooses not to become a criminal might be enough for the sul'dam to cling to. As idolized and revered as the empress is among the Seanchan the fact that the empress herself gives them absolution of their ability to learn might be enough to keep the sul'dam together. And if she can convince the people to continue to give the sul'dam their trust by reminding them of near 1,000 years of reliable service to the empire even the general populace might accept it.

 

That said I expect the practice of damane to be at least on the way towards abolition at the end of AMOL, the question is what Tuon will demand in return for freeing them. There has to be some kind of means to ensure control. Perhaps Bethamin and Seta might acquire a binder and bring it back to Tuon and from that day onwards all Seanchan channelers swear two oaths one to serve the empire and abide by its laws and the second to never undo that oath.

I don't think the damane issue will be resolved by the end of aMoL.

 

I do believe that the Seanchan will stop trying to leash the marath-damane in Randland after a failed 2nd attack on the WT. Mat will probably try to convince Tuon that they have enough damane to defend themselves against any possible attack from the marath-damane.

 

I might also be persuaded to believe that the Aiel damane are freed, if someone could give me a decent scenario, cause my own scenarios are crappy at best and would be rather illogical.

 

The reason I believe the wise ones might be an exception has to do with the fact that unlike most other channelers, the power of the wise ones is limited by the power of the clan chiefs and that the wise ones aren't a group that consists solely of channelers. The non-channeleres amongst the wise ones limit the power of the channelers ever further.

 

Something similar applies to the Sea Folk windfinders, but the difference between the Sea Folk and the Aiel is that the Aiel wouldn't be afraid to talk to the Seanchan & that they might even be able to negotiate on nearly equal terms (they've got a very strong force). They are aware of what will happen if the future as they know it isn't changed, which might give them even more incentive to negotiate with the Seanchan.

 

Besides that, I don't think we'll see many changes concerning the damane.

 

 

Will Tuon channel before the end? 

 

I doubt it. Tuon doesn't even know how to & she'd probably have to be thought by another channeler before she could even channel a drop of water or a small flame. Even if she wanted to learn, which I personally doubt, it'd take more time than she currently has, assuming she could find a safe spot in ebou Dar & someone willing to teach her. 

 

 

 

Will Tuon take an oath on the oath rod?

 

No. Egwene might like it, but not if the oath meant she (Tuon) would have to serve Rand. The quote clearly states he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'. If we take the binding literally, then we should take the serve him part literally as well. If we don't take the binding literally, then she's already bound to Rand, through Mat & she also serves him, once again, through Mat.

 

I don't think the empress will leave Ebou Dar, unless it's to return to Seanchan, after a large army has already reconquered parts of it. She certainly isn't going to walk around in enemy territory now that she's empress. She doesn't even have an heir yet.

 

I doubt anyone in the possession of a binder is gonna go to Ebou Dar to force her to take an oath. I don't honestly believe anyone oin Randland thinks of taking such an action, and even if he or she did, that person would quickly come to the conclusion that it'd be suicide.

 

Besides, it'd be useless if Tuon hasn't managed to touch the source yet.

There is a common fundamental misunderstanding about whether Tuon can channel right off the bat. Bethamin did it. Any sul'dam could. They have been channeling for years, and the best ones (like Tuon and the der'sul'dam) can channel directly through the damane without having to tell the damane what to do. Since Tuon has never been denied the opportunity to be 'complete', she's had more practice than many sul'dam who have been at it for far longer. She will probably have to develop her strength, but she already knows how to make the weaves.

Edited December 16, 201213 yr by Terez

Right so if she actually takes that step over the line then the oath rod would work. Until then however I don't see that being the case.

Tuon is now Fortuona, and is Empress, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore. She and Mat may have children before the timeline of aMOL ends. One of these children, a daughter, would be the new 'nine moons' that Rand would bind to serve him, thus binding the nine moons. I don't know how that would help him win the Last Battle with a babe serving him, but it might happen.

 

Or it could play into Rand's death that he did not bind the Nine Moons to him. The meeting he had with Tuon was when he was pre-VoG and could spell early disaster for the forces of light. The prophecies, as has been shown, hang onto the smallest bits to become fulfilled. Plus the Seanchan prophecies have different wording than the ones in Randland. Who really knows which is the right version?

Tuon is now Fortuona, and is Empress, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore. She and Mat may have children before the timeline of aMOL ends. One of these children, a daughter, would be the new 'nine moons' that Rand would bind to serve him, thus binding the nine moons. I don't know how that would help him win the Last Battle with a babe serving him, but it might happen. Or it could play into Rand's death that he did not bind the Nine Moons to him. The meeting he had with Tuon was when he was pre-VoG and could spell early disaster for the forces of light. The prophecies, as has been shown, hang onto the smallest bits to become fulfilled. Plus the Seanchan prophecies have different wording than the ones in Randland. Who really knows which is the right version?

You missunderstand what the nine moons are. Daughter of the Nine Moons is the title of the female heir of the empress. The court in Seandar was also called the court of the nine moons meaning that the nine moons are a metaphor for the empire and the empress in particular. Therefore binding the nine moons to him still means that Rand has to come to some sort of accord with empire and empress.

I did not know they called the court itself the court of the nine moons. Then Rand still has time to make the agreement/binding with Fortuona. I think then that Avi's vision her second time through the pillars were based on a future without Rand making that binding yet. Maybe he will make it before Bair goes through the pillars now and sees a much different future then what Avi saw.

There is a common fundamental misunderstanding about whether Tuon can channel right off the bat. Bethamin did it. Any sul'dam could. They have been channeling for years, and the best ones (like Tuon and the der'sul'dam) can channel directly through the damane without having to tell the damane what to do. Since Tuon has never been denied the opportunity to be 'complete', she's had more practice than many sul'dam who have been at it for far longer. She will probably have to develop her strength, but she already knows how to make the weaves.

This is true and both Seta and Bethamin knew the weaves the damane used for weapons (KoD, ch 27) but they couldn't do much right off the bat. They just channeled some sparks. However, they must have progressed quickly because Mat was even thinking of using them against the Seanchan (KoD, ch 27) and this was less than  two days after Seta channeled for the first time (KoD, ch 25).

 

But a recent comment by BS makes me think that he has different ideas on the subject and  Tuon won't do too much channeling in AMOL.

Interview: Nov 24th, 2012

Idaho Falls Signing Report - PrncRny (Paraphrased)

PrncRny

Do we ever find out how strong in the power Tuon would be if she ever snapped and started channeling? Did RJ leave any notes about that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he did. The problem is that that's not the sort of thing I can work into the books very easily. The issue is that her strength would be tied to, well, people's strength go up they practice and things. Yes he has the notes, but there's no way the characters can know for sure. That would be something for the outriggers, which maybe we can get into the encyclopedia. He left a big list for everyone and a number for their power level, their strength in the One Power, just for comparison's sake, which was cool because it would also say 'Here's the threshold for creating a gateway and here's the threshold for this' and its a really cool list and I hope they put it into the encyclopaedia but I don't know if they will.

PrncRny

Ok, so she's not going to snap in the next one and start channeling?

Brandon Sanderson

Well. Even if she did, how powerful she would get would not be immediately evident. Does that make sense?

Forgetting the fact that BS is wrong about the difficulty of figuring out Tuon's potential strength (there is  a test that only takes a few minutes according to Moiraine), the way I read it, he thinks that Tuon will be weak to begin with and so won't channel a lot in AMOL.

Edited December 17, 201213 yr by herid

That's not how I read it. He said her strength wouldn't be immediately evident. That just means she has to practice for a while before it's evident. Though maybe Brandon is forgetting that potential can be sensed. I also read it as, Tuon is definitely going to channel. I should change my vote... (I'm on undecided now because I can see it either way, but it looks as though Brandon is saying she would have been channeling by the outriggers at the latest).

That's not how I read it. He said her strength wouldn't be immediately evident. That just means she has to practice for a while before it's evident. Though maybe Brandon is forgetting that potential can be sensed.

yes, he is. we discussed it a little why ago on the forum and Luckers found a quote from NS where Moiraine says that the test to measure the potential takes only a few minutes.

 

I also read it as, Tuon is definitely going to channel. I should change my vote... (I'm on undecided now because I can see it either way, but it looks as though Brandon is saying she would have been channeling by the outriggers at the latest).

Yes, I agree. I did vote for that from the first. I'm also pretty sure that Mat will end up being bonded but that's likely left for the outriggers too.

And the First Oath would not inconvenience her too much as she has a Voice to speak things for her when she wants to be misleading.

And from those 'Memories of Light', will her truthspeaker be Setalle Anan?

The Damane system is both deeply embedded in Seanchan culture and integral to its military might. NO ruler is powerful enough to easily dismantle something like that. As we've seen, learning that Sul'dam could learn to channel didn't have much of an effect on Tuon. It's a lot easier to change your rationalizations than it is to change the system.

 

So I don't see the damane being unchained by the end of AMoL, although we may see the first steps on the eventual path.

Will Rand swear on the oath rod? Hmmm..... perhaps that was one of the objects he ran off to fetch.

I doubt the damane system will be concluded within the main series, I thought that it may have been one of the key side plots to the outrigger novels that RJ initially planned to do.

 

Though I do like the idea of the long term objectives and had not previously considered Tuon taking an Oath herself. (I'm also intrigued as to who or what constitutes the court of the nine moon's, who's to say Tuon is the one bound) 

 

I'm hoping that the encyclopedia may well have the facts for the other two prequels and the outrigger novels within it, if not a fleshed out story.

I'm HOPEFULLY we'll get some sort of resolution on the damane issue...it's been one of the more frustrating things in the books and one of the darkest/ugliest sides to the Seanchan (slavery in general)

 

I think Tuon channeling is the way to that 'enlightened' path...so I am extremely hopefully that happens.

 

 

One of the things that stops me from really liking Tuon/Fortuna

The Aiel don't have to return to the Way of the Leaf, they just have to learn to not see the rest of the world as enemies. If the Seanchan release the collared Wise Ones, the Aeil wouldn't even have an issue with them. They already have that capacity, when Rhuarc came back to Cold Rocks in Shadow Rising there was a boisterous community there that was a trifle less militaristic.

 

Rand with LTTs knowledge likely thinks of the Oath Rod as a punishment/corrective behaviour device, much like the Forsaken do.