Elder_Haman

How is this doing that? Is "the Tower must bend the knee to the Dragon" some kind of iconic line that is being taken from one character and given to another? I mean, I understand and agree with many of the criticisms of the show's writing, but this is not a good example to choose.

I could see something like this: Mat learns of a plot against the wonder girls who have gone off to Tanchico. He and Min run off to save them. Mat meets Thom in Tanchico. Hijinx ensue. Saves the girls. (Meets Alludra?) Ends up in Panarch's palace. There's a twisted door. Falls through. Meets the Finn. Ends up swinging from a tree in Rhuidean just as Rand makes in back from getting tattooed.

What about it?

Here we go!! Please keep the discussion civil.

Indeed. As many in Randland are taught to believe.

Likely because the Black attacks when Liandrin is revealed as a traitor and he is able to escape in the resulting chaos.

I just prefer to pretend S1E8 didn't happen. It's a mess in so many ways (many of which were beyond the control of the showrunners). I really wonder what it would have looked like without COVID. But other than Rand and Ishy's scene at the Eye (which was very good), that whole episode was just a mess.

Too fatalistic and dismissive. As the story moves forward, I suspect it will hit a number of the same beats as the books and that the seasons will hew more closely to them. As for the snakes and foxes, if you look closely at some of the Aiel rugs from the teaser, there are some patterns that hint very strongly that the snakes and foxes exist in the tv version.

All of these are good points and I don’t necessarily disagree with any of them. It’s one of the reasons I think the “Who is the Dragon” plot was such a bad idea. But nonetheless, there is some merit in trying to make the show from the POVs of those around Rand rather than Rand himself. The execution has been … uneven. I think Nyn needed her huge moment as a vehicle for showing both her strength and the consequences of her block. But again, I think it was poorly executed. Eggy and Rand seem to be on similar growth paths. Both earned good moments at the end.

I bet Gareth Byrne will be cut entirely.

You’re reaching. None of those things are important. They’re flavor.

I mean we’re in Schroedinger’s script territory here. Who cares? What impact has this change had on the core of the story?

We do. It gives them plot armor and plays into fantasy tropes. It’s far better writing to play into the which way will he go, save the world or destroy it aspect of the Dragon. It allows you to build tension between Rand and his friends and his friends between one another - something Rand often plays to his advantage throughout the books. He’s had some cool moments. He will get more. Keeping him nerfed for a bit also helps with power creep. Yes. In service of better storytelling in a visual medium.

I didn't say that. And I generally agree with you that Rand has not had enough screen time. But I'm pretty sure that Rand is about to get his this season. If they do it right, he'll get a season or season and a half as an unquestioned hero before he starts to slide into antagonist territory. Rand always being the protagonist would make for kind of boring television. They haven't handled him perfectly by any means, but his arc is still pretty much the same: S1/B1 - Rand has no idea what he's doing; S2/B2 - Rand doesn't want to admit he's the Dragon; S3/B3 - Rand affirmatively claims the mantle of the Dragon.

But has it actually mattered to the plot in any meaningful way?

Because Rand is going to become the antagonist for awhile and you want to be invested in the other characters when that happens.

Eh. Okay. This seems kind of like a nothing burger to me. I’ll wait for it to actually matter before I get mad about it.

They are building Rand more slowly than in the books. That’s not necessarily a poor choice. And when your biggest actress has nothing to do for an entire book’s worth of content, you create content to keep her central - especially since you’ll need her back.

If I’ve seen those, I’ve forgotten them. Please provide a link.

Sorry. I don’t agree with this at all. You’re hanging on a single line “could be a boy or a girl” and assuming a reliable narrator. The line was in service of the mystery box, not the other way around.

My experience was mixed with non-book people. Some knew it was Rand right away. Some thought it was Nyn. One was all in on Perrin. All were sort of underwhelmed by the actual reveal. The problem was that the “mystery” necessarily shifted the focus away from Rand at the expense of developing the relationships between Rand and the others Emond’s Fielders.

Exactly correct. For example, I think it was a bad idea to frame season one the way they did. “Who is the Dragon?” just didn’t work. I think it was probably someone’s too clever by half attempt to get people invested in the characters, but the story just isn’t structured to make that a viable choice. That one choice was likely responsible for some of the most disliked aspects of the season (Nyn’s mass rez, for example) and had the effect of skewing away from Rand. One can be critical without resorting to insane ad hominems against the showrunner or hysterical, performative whinging about RJ rolling over in his grave. The hyperbole that comes from some of the show haters is just cringe inducing and it signals a lack of interest in any actual discussion.

Nope. It sure wasn’t.

No it isn’t. It’s using context clues to make logical inferences.

Fortunately, I have never suggested such a thing.