notpropaganda73

That's interesting, I didn't realise the writers' strike had impacted on S3, I thought it was S2 that was majorly impacted.

That's awesome, I love the Scouse accent as well

I thought this was a nod to the books and when Lews Therin would take control, or Rand would do something without realising it. Ask him in the next episode if he could consciously do exactly what he had just done, and I doubt he would be able to. I'd like to reiterate I liked the vast majority of this episode, there was a lot to get through and the Cauthons Healing really annoyed me, but for the most part I think it was good. A lot of things I think are really coming back to the issue the show has had from the start - not enough time. Another 2 episodes each season would really be a sweet spot for adaptation purposes in my opinion.

Honestly, I was expecting Verin to show up as a Deus ex machina moment to Heal Alanna, because I knew she had to be Healed. But this was much more annoying.

Anyway, in spite of my clear annoyance at the Cauthons Healing, I enjoyed this episode 😅 First, Tanchico. Really great, I wasn't sure in certain scenes but I think Thom coming back sealed it for me, Elayne singing as well! I really wish though when things quietened a little bit that she whispered to Thom something like "Have we met before??" and then he joins in with the shouts for her to sing again to avoid the question or something. Just a little nod on top of what he had said about Morgase's court. Moggy is fantastic, I've felt she has not been used enough so far in terms of interacting with other characters, but this scene with Elayne and Nynaeve was really brilliant, the actress is so good. I kept waiting for Nynaeve to resist and it was great when it happened as well. I hope they let that breathe a little bit in terms of a rivalry. One thing that annoyed me with the Black sisters though - both Nyomi and Ispan said Forsaken rather than Chosen. I know that Darkfriends in the books would sometimes do this, as they maybe weren't "true believers". But for Moghedien especially not to react to "one of the Forsaken" is a small character beat I just feel wouldn't wash in reality. It could have even been something she said as she kills Ispan - "We are Chosen". It's small, but for me it would add to the show if they hit those small moments. In the Two Rivers, I loved the Perrin and Faile scene and dialogue, but like others I wish the show held back on them kissing. I think a slow burn would have worked way better for those characters to be frank, especially considering Perrin was just talking about his wife. I am not so sure on the Wise Ones and training Egwene at the moment. We just have a lot of the Wise Ones telling Egwene what to do. To me, they should be showing her. Why haven't we seen a cocky Egwene being slapped down a peg or two by the Wise Ones in the Dream? Just one scene like that would show how she has to grow, and show the Wise Ones power. For me, they started out strong as characters but the past two episodes feel quite sidelined and lacking agency. I understand too that they don't have much time, but I would like a scene with Rand and Rhuarc and the Wise Ones since Rhuidean. Regardless, no matter how I feel generally about the love triangle and Egwene - Rand - Lanfear, the break-up scene was excellently done. I was also thinking while watching the scene that for what is to come (hopefully), this sort of personal break between them, and Egwene's "Don't lie to me Rand", as if she didn't fully believe he didn't know, it gives that extra personal dimension to them being at loggerheads further down the line and whether Egwene can really trust Rand, never mind the Dragon Reborn. So I thought it was really good - I just hated Sammael's entrance haha, it was so hokey! But, again, Aviendha channeling: good. Rand's show of Power - great! And that scene from the books was done as well as I thought they could for the show - a beat-for-beat recreation of the book would be too far for me. I thought they hit the write note and got the seriousness of it across really well. Like I briefly mentioned too, I really liked Alanna teaching the girls how to embrace the Source. I thought it contrasted really well with Rand's description from his POV. I also liked him saying that the Aes Sedai don't know everything - but I don't think he does either, so I wouldn't think the show is going down the route of "it's all the same Power", I wonder if they are more going for the idea that Rand will be tempted by the True Power (or at least, Lanfear will try). While I'm delighted to finally get a distinction between saidin and saidar, it feels so silly to me to this day that they didn't make this small distinction in S1, E8, when Moiraine and Rand are going to the Eye. One line all the way back then would have set it up more, but regardless, we have it now I suppose. I am assuming Sammael is now going to be Rand's teacher. This makes me doubt whether Asmodean is actually in the show, and makes room again for Demandred... although the guitar-playing Forsaken figureine in S1 still makes me thinks surely it's Asmo!

She was already being defeated by the Whitecloaks because Maksim wasn't there. You can show that without having her on death's door at the end of it. It's easy to show that they had the upper hand and if he doesn't arrive when he does, she absolutely would have died. But again, they went OTT.

I know we will just not agree on this and I don't know if I have the energy for an endless back and forth - but the show has removed any stakes so long as there are people around who can Heal. Now, the show has put forth the idea that you don't even need to be trained in channeling to be able to Heal, you just need to be able to channel and know how to embrace the Source. Don't worry if you're stabbed 100 times and a thousand arrows to every artery, it's ok, a child channeler is nearby! The Whitecloaks threat has been extremely well established at this point, all the way back to their very first introduction we saw how dangerous they are to Aes Sedai, we did not need to see Alanna hit with a million arrows to re-emphasise that point. Honestly, less is absolutely more in this case.

My issue with the whole thing is just writing decisions and Healing in general in the show. Alanna needed to be Healed - no doubt about that. But she needed to be Healed because the writers' made that decision. There was absolutely zero need for her to have been riddled with so many arrows in her fight with the Whitecloaks. Have her be taken out with one, two, hell even three arrows, nasty enough for Maksim to come back and save her but not so bad that she's about to die. Have her back in the Two Rivers ok, but not in a great way, able to Heal Perrin a little, but needing to rest. Have her discover the two girls can channel, still have her teach them to embrace the Source (I loved that!), even have her teach them a very basic Healing weave so that they can fix up her wound enough that she's back on her feet, but not in great shape! Perfect! But no, the show had to go OTT with how badly she was injured and again just over use Healing and the level of training needed for what should be an incredibly complex weave. And no doubt Alanna will be up and at them and in full fighting condition for the Battle next episode. The show again and again fails with this. On the one hand there are absolutely zero stakes, and on the other the stakes are so high that we have Rand trying to resurrect a little girl all the while people watch him worried if the madness has him. The show is inconsistent with the seriousness of these moments scene to scene, it's really taking me out of it and is so frustrating.

I have a theory that I don't think I've seen anywhere, regarding Tanchico and this season -

It is Leane who mentions the Grey Man. You don’t see who is talking, the camera shot is from above as Siuan heals Elaida, but it’s clearly Leane’s voice

I would need to rewatch the S1e8 cold open. It wasn't my impression on first watch that there was no urgency, but it has been a long time and I have not rewatched that episode (for obvious reasons). I remember at the time thinking the cold open was easily the best thing about the episode, so maybe I didn't pick up on wider implications in the scene. Finally got my rewatch of episode 4: - Flame and the Void, FINALLY. Rand talking about his father, FINALLY. Lan and Rand bonding, FINALLY. I am happy to see these things but really feel we could have had a scene like this all the way back in Season 1, honestly. If you lifted this scene and put it back to before Shadar Logoth, we would have gained a lot in my view. But glad to have finally gotten it now. - I liked the Aviendha and Lan "fight". I thought Lan was being playful to be honest, and I felt like it showed the Aiel respect him more than other wetlanders (likely any other wetlander). It was also a nice contrast with Aviendha having fun and then immediately having to break her spears. My only criticism of this scene is I don't think there was any set up for Aviendha becoming a Wise One. Even one or two lines of dialogue in previous episodes indicating she was avoiding Wise Ones or something would have set it up a little better for me. - I really loved the introduction of Sevanna and Couladin, I think the actor for Couladin is great on the limited amount we've seen him. The reveal of Bair being able to channel was well done (I think there can be no doubt now the show is not following book lore in terms of women sensing one another's abilities) and the info being conveyed by the Aiel in terms of Rhuidean etc., is all really well handled. I love the spears being left and the indicator that these are the Aiel who did not return and take their weapons back. Also Moiraine with the knives was a nice nod to Mat! - Moiraine and Rand under Avendesora and the small lore-dump about the Aiel War and "some old debt" or however Moiraine phrased it was a nice nod to the vision from the books that we did not have time for in the episode. I thought it was a good choice to include a flashback to Rand's father - it's frustrating he was unveiled but as many have noted I think this is just a function of the visual medium. Directors' and actors' and actors' agents want the faces to be visible. It's extremely annoying from a lore and faithfulness point of view, especially when they explain in the Lewin flashback where the veil has come from, but in general I get it. - I have already spoken about the Lewin scene, it is easily the highlight of the episode for me and that final "hide your face stranger" was absolutely heartbreaking. My partner was in tears watching this scene and has no knowledge of the books so I think the show deserves huge kudos for getting the emotional weight of this across. - The one flashback I did not particularly like, or felt it missed the mark compared to the others, was Latra and the Oath. There were cool visuals in this scene of the Breaking. But I felt there could have at least been a reference to the famous scene of the Aiel singing arm-in-arm to a male channeller to try and cure his madness. This would have tied nicely with the Tuatha'an against the Whitecloaks in S1. This sort of small detail has been missing a lot for me throughout the series and just keeps it at "generally good, not great". - The Bore! Mierin Sedai! The Song! A close 2nd to the Lewin scene for me. The Bore was incredible, this rip in reality, it really hammers home that this isn't witches and wizards and Dark Lords, but something cosmic. - On Moiraine... I have a few quibbles. I found the scene of her finding Sarkonnen a bit clunky/forced, but it serves it's purpose I suppose. The rings looked awesome. But I think I would have preferred one or two more "in depth" scenes of these possible futures, with the "turning" scenes ending her second vision maybe. I felt like these possible futures just went by a little too fast. I understand that Moiraine sees a thousand possible futures and all the rest, but maybe just one more detailed scene for us to sit with, I would have enjoyed. But obviously this is all more than we saw in the books (I think?) which is great too. - I liked Rand staying for Moiraine. Carrying her out as well, it was all great visuals and I liked that they made the decision to skip the dialogue at the end of the episode. We'd all just been through something big, it was good to sit with it in a bit of a silence! Overall, a great achievement for everyone involved in the episode. Like I mentioned, I feel like the rest of the series has been too inconsistent to really elevate this to an all-timer, but the more I sit with it the more and more I really love this episode. They did a great job of adapting my favourite sequence of chapters in all of fantasy.

oh I totally agree on that haha, and I think the show did a very good job with Nynaeve and Lan for example

this is also fair, maybe this representation is much more realistic 😅

it's one thing not adhering to logic, it's another to seemingly disregard all of those things with no turmoil about it. He seems to have not struggled at all with who Lanfear really is and only wishing about who she once was and could be again. But, I'm hoping there will be some payoff there.

No doubt my book biases are hard to suppress at times, but for me I don't really believe that he is in love with her. Maybe that's book knowledge seeping through but there is something about their scenes that just don't seem real or genuine in terms of love or anything like it. The only time I felt Lanfear was being authentic on screen was the Mierin flashback. Every other scene feels manipulative, and I think what is frustrating me is Rand feels much too naive around her. Even giving Rand some grace for falling in love with Selene etc., he knows who she is now and what she is capable of, he knows the stories and what she has done even in Cairhien when he baited her into rescuing him. He knows from his Rhuidean visions what she did in releasing the Dark One. But he doesn't seem to account for that when talking to her in his dreams. Maybe he is but it's not coming across to me. And maybe this finally coming to a head with Egwene will mean things are said and are out in the open a bit more and it might pay off a little. But as it stands it's just frustrating for me 😅

I will also say: SEA FOLK! I didn't expect any exploration of them in the show (there is so much to adapt), but they were done brilliantly. Also: HOPPER!

I am really surprised at the extent of some of the negativity to this episode. It was a classic TV episode that comes after a big, epic one - it was quieter, it was revisiting characters we haven't seen, it was moving pieces around the board. And those episodes can be BORING - but I actually really enjoyed this one! It gave me a lot of things I feel has been missing from the show across three seasons, quiet moments for characters, letting things breathe a little bit, hints at these people's true character if they were not thrust into this insane, world-ending story. Was it perfect? No, not even close, and of course I have complaints as always haha - but for a TV show I think it did a very good job with this sort of episode. And I understand some folks being very very disappointed with the show as a whole, and maybe this episode sums up why for them, but I suppose I'm seeing it in the context of this specific season and I think this season is doing a very good job. I also thought that Egwene dream-hopping felt a little off, not because "oh she's able to do this", but these are people's dreams, extremely personal. I actually didn't see it as the show saying "look how awesome Egwene is", it more felt like a check-in on all our characters and how they see themselves. I found it interesting Nynaeve dreamed of home, of being the Wisdom, and not of Lan (I thought it was a nice touch). My main complaint with this sequence is Perrin did not notice her in his dream - either this means the Dream is not something for Perrin and the Wolves (which I would absolutely hate), or the writers' missed this beat (which I would be very disappointed with, and is another small misstep that keeps this show at a solid 6-7/10 rather than top tier adaptation). One thing I will say in general about adaptation choices and specifically with regards to Siuan and Moiraine. I think that expanding their personal relationship is a really good way to show the stakes that are involved here. TV shows and movies do not have the same time or ability to convey character motivations and full personalities and internal monologues that books do. Moiraine is a wonderful character in the books, of course. But giving her personal sacrifice in the show, seeing Siuan say she wished they never heard Gitara's prophecy - that gives the entire arc of both of their stories an extra bit of something for TV audiences. It helps to have two great actresses in these roles. As book lovers, we can sit here and complain that "Duty is enough! The Last Battle is enough of high stakes!" and sure, that's true - but is it? Isn't it more interesting to see what people are willing to give up personally, rather than high concept end-of-the-world stuff? I think I have said on this forum before - and spoilers for anyone who possible hasn't seen Avengers movies (if you are out there!). What makes Endgame so good and Iron Man's entire arc so brilliant is not that he is a good man who will do the good thing and sacrifice himself for the world because that is what good men do. What makes it great is what he feels is his personal failure, with Peter being snapped, his personal journey to fix what he feels he personally messed up. Coming back to WoT, I do not give a damn about a change like this for the show - all I care about is whether it's working within the show. And for me, Moiraine and Siuan is working brilliantly. An example of something I think is not working at all, at least not for me, is the Rand - Egwene - Lanfear triangle. For me, Rand in the books was always struggling with his identity, with who he is, with who he has to become as the Dragon. The madness was a tinge to that as well - is he too far gone? We have had hints of his identity struggle in the show and they tend to be my favourite Rand moments. We haven't had any of the madness I don't think. Any time Lanfear and Rand meet in the dream I am, frankly, bored - I don't find it at all engaging and I don't find it believable that Rand would be tempted by her in this way. I could have gotten on board with Rand believing that Lanfear could possibly be saved. But I suppose that Book-Rand is so embedded in my brain, I cannot believe he would ever engage with her like Show-Rand has. I could even get on board with this if we were seeing more of Rand "too far gone" things and Lanfear trying to exploit that. But it feels surface level, forbidden-love type drama, with very little depth in my opinion. For me, this is an aspect of the show that just hasn't worked at all, and I'm struggling with it any time this plot is being played out. And I know I will struggle in later episodes as Egwene confronts him about what she saw in the Dream.

I haven't had a chance to post my in depth thoughts, I want to re-watch the episode before ep5 and will hopefully get a more fleshed out post in then. But I did mention nitpicks and I suppose one is a really petty one, and one is more a comment on the series as a whole: Josha's accent in the Lewin scene really took me out of it initially, as an Irish person I had a horrible feeling and was worried we would see some Harfoot-level nonsense like in Rings of Power. But thankfully, that entire sequence is written and acted so well that I got past the accent very quickly (Although I still just think - why? None of the other sequences gave them accents like that? It was strange to me). But more significantly, I mentioned in the build up to season three that I hoped for some interaction between the Aiel and Tuatha'an in order to really help Rhuidean "land", so to speak. We had one small scene where Rhuarc stayed behind to bury the "Lost Ones". We had a "previously on" reminder before the episode. But I feel like some of the significance was a little lost because we haven't had any time with the Tinkers since S1, and while a lot of work has been done this season to flesh out the Aiel, something just didn't land quite like it should have for me, with regards to the Way of the Leaf, ji-e'toh, the Jenn Aiel and the splits that occurred. Really this isn't a critism of the episode itself, as a standalone I think it's done an incredible job in getting across significant world-building and lore. More, were the crumbs laid out sufficiently, or enough importance given to them through the first 2 seasons, in order for Rhuidean to be elevated to an all-time piece of fantasy television? Unfortunately I don't think so, and while I finished the episode super happy and impressed with what they had achieved, part of me still felt quite a bit of sadness at what could have been if the show had been more consistent through the first 2 seasons. Like I say I will hopefully get a rewatch and post done on all the positives (of which there are many!!) before ep5 drops.

Wow. I will post more detailed thoughts another time but can I just say that it is quite amazing how much dense lore and worldbuilding they are able to get across in such a short timeframe. I have some complaints of course 😅 but I think as a standalone episode it is an incredible piece of work. bravo to Josha and the entire team on this

It's got to be Asmodean in my opinion. How else will Rand learn? I thought they might give Logain that role but he needs to be healed, and I think things are moving too slowly in that regard to get Rand where he needs to be. So really we are left with Asmodean. I think the thing with both Mesaana and Demandred is that the current Forsaken in the show can fulfill their roles. They don't do anything in particular that can't be taken on by another Forsaken for show purposes, which gives the current Forsaken more to do and makes them more of a threat (particularly Sammael). Whereas Asmodean's role is so specific, I struggle to see how the show replaces him.

Thanks for the replies - I think what confused me was "Where they came from centuries ago", it implied to me that Elayne already had this knowledge of where the Seanchan came from as opposed to figuring that out. But I may also be misremembering something from S2 and what they've learned about the Seanchan up to this point!

The Black Ajah murder spree is really the only thing I really really didn't like about this episode. It breaks a bit of immersion for me for the reasons Mailman says about it being such a public move imo. There are some other small things I took issue with, however I think this episode was the best so far this season. - I love Rhuarc and Bair! Such good casting and great character building moments so far. A good indicator of how quickly you can establish a character with small bits of dialogue and actions (Rhuarc burying the Lost Ones). - "That is Wise One's business" hahaha - Mat and the quarterstaff! I just wish there was a bit more of an audience to it. But it was really well choreographed, I think they are trying to establish that Mat was capable even before the memories issue, but he's definitely accessing something else now. One small thing, when he speaks the Old Tongue, I don't see any translations for it, is that the same for everyone else? It's a bit of a strange choice for the show if so in my opinion. - Faile! Great casting as well. I was surprised at Lord Luc's appearance, I for sure thought he would be cut. - Some Perrin ta'vereness going on with getting the Two Rivers folks to stay? - I have watched this episode twice and when Nynaeve and Elayne are figuring out Tanchico, before the Grey Man attack. Elayne says something like "Tanchico is next to Falme, where the Seanchan landed, where they came from centuries ago". What? Did I misunderstand her lines here? Because if not I have no idea what that's supposed to mean or how that helps them decide to go to Tanchico. - Suspicion being cast on Verin this early doesn't quite sit right with me but I suppose they do need to condense things, my girlfriend picked up on it right away and I've just said how really they can't trust anyone, so it's good to question everyone. - Rand and Lanfear in the Dream, I think they are really going down the love triangle route with Rand, Lanfear and Egwene and honestly I do not like it at all. I also didn't like that scene in general, but Natasha O'Keeffe really sells these scenes in fairness. Overall I think this season is very strong so far. There are choices made and bits that I haven't liked, but overall I'm much more positive about things than I was at this point of S2 for example. And from most reviews I believe this next episode is one of the best. I am nervous because Rhuidean is my favourite (and I know many people feel the same), but I hope they do it justice.

As mentioned I think the biggest issue is the Healing power creep. I appreciate the idea of Nynaeve being able to Heal the mind which could be a great arc, but I still have an issue with the lack of stakes so long as an Aes Sedai is nearby to Heal. The Grey Man on Nynaeve really was overboard. I am not too bothered about big displays of the power outside of the Healing, although Moiraine's display at the end of S2 just didn't work for me within the story (I really didn't enjoy the S2 finale and thought that power display was a bit weird and pointless). It doesn't bother me that she was able to do it. But I do agree that the apparent lack of fatigue is an issue for me as well. But I am willing to let this play out a little. Whereas with Healing I think they have established how powerful it is, so the show has given itself a problem I don't really see how they can fix at this point.

Not sure if he was in the intro but he's definitely mentioned later on by Gaebril to Elayne, right? Fwiw I agree that the cold open didn't sit quite right with me, not so much that Morgase made that decision but more how it was made - making them swear to her and "all is forgiven" etc. That felt too much like a villain twisting their moustache to me. I can understand in the context of a Succession War that those you defeat face death, but yeah, it felt like a "twist" that didn't need to be done in that way. It's sort of an example of things that have happened across the 3 seasons of the show where I feel like they've gone for something that doesn't particularly work for me, that feels sort of cheap and unearned. But, my book knowledge has spoiled me there as my partner loved the scene and was fully engaged with Morgase as a character for the entire episode. And she properly believes her when she threatens bringing an army to Tar Valon later in the episode. So in that respect, for establishing Morgase as a character for television - it worked. No doubt Olivia Williams helps in that respect! In terms of the compulsion, I understand the need to pick it apart, it does seem a little overpowered to me and if you start to think about how it functions like Mailman has pointed out (in terms of this guy appearing a month ago but he's apparently been around for 10 years), there are holes there. Was Bryne questioning things are suspicious/resistant to the Compulsion, is that part of why he had to go? How long does the compulsion last if the weave isn't tied off? Will we get a scene later in this season where Elayne mentions Gaebril to Nynaeve, who says she had never mentioned him once before? How detailed are these false memories? It's something I am willing to see play out a little before having a full judgement on it. But, as it stands I think it's overpowered. However I do agree with the post earlier in the thread that sometimes you need a bad guy to be able to something just as a function of being the bad guy. Rule of Cool and all that. I think they could have established it a bit better but at the same time I like all the scenes with Gaebril, and I liked the little hints that something is off with the pauses before Leane says his name, before Elayne greets him again etc. So as part of the show, it's probably worked - this is where I think the casting has helped the show get over some cracks. And again it establishes the Forsaken as capable and dangerous, and that they don't all have the same sort of skills - my partner is most definitely worried about them which is a nice change from the books at times.

completely agree and even from a show-only perspective, it adds to the "who is a DF' element - when evil people are revealed to just be evil and not tied to the Shadow, it adds a layer of complexity on character motivations and I think is rewarding for a show-only watcher. This world isn't simply good people versus the Dark One and his followers.