ArrylT

https://www.telltalesonline.com/34499/expensive-tv-shows/

 

Remember to include inflation when considering costs. Ex: 9 million in 2005-2007 is not 9 million today but more like 10.5-11 million.

 

16. Westworld

Per Episode: $10 Million

Source: Hollywood Reporter

 

15. Friends (tie)

Per Episode: $10 Million

Source: Finances Online

 

14. The Witcher (tie)

Per Episode: $10 Million

Source: Screenrant

 

 

13. The Get Down

Per Episode: $11 Million

Source: Deadline

 

12. Band of Brothers

Per Episode: $12 Million

Source: Screenrant

 

11. ER

Per Episode: $13 Million

Source: Ninja Journalist

 

10. The Crown (tie)

Per Episode: $13 Million

Source: Market Watch

 

9. The Morning Show

Per Episode: $15 Million

Source: Business Insider

 

8. See (tie)

Per Episode: $15 Million

Source: Metro

 

7. Game of Thrones (tie)

Per Episode: $15 Million

Source: Vanity Fair

 

6. The Mandalorian (tie)

Per Episode: $15 Million

Source: Film Goblin

 

5. The Pacific

Per Episode: $20 Million

Source: Hollywood Reporter

 

4. WandaVision

Per Episode: $25 Million 

Source: Me Aww

 

3. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier (tie)

Per Episode: $25 Million 

Source: Hollywood Reporter

 

2. Loki (tie)

Per Episode: $25 Million 

Source: Cheatsheet

 

1. Hawkeye (tie)

Per Episode: $25 Million 

Source: Screenrant

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/covid-costs-film-tv-production-1235113051/

 

Article on the costs of covid to film/tv production. 5-6% of budget spent on covid protocols.

 

5% of 80 million (the rumoured but not official?) is 4 million.   And that is in California.

 

The protocols in Europe are perhaps more stringent.  For example

 

• The United States is on the list of Very High Risk countries for COVID transmission according to Czech government guidelines. Please see the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website for details and travel requirements.

 

https://cz.usembassy.gov/covid-19-information-71/

 

Here are the current protocols:

 

https://filmcommission.cz/en/self-regulatory-recommendations-samoregulacni-opatreni/

 

So assuming the 80m budget for S1 is legit, I would estimate between covid protocols, cost of inflation (6m in 2011 is 7.4m in 2021), building their own production studio and all that intails, the actual per episode budget is likely slightly less than that of GOT S1, but is obviously more effects driven.

 

 

Anyways here is a comment on foreshadowing from reddit

 

That view was from 1 window going in 1 direction.   We have no idea what the other 3 cardinal points look like or how they would be seen post-breaking of the world.   In the end it is all subjective, personally I think that visual made for a good comparison pre/post breaking.   

 

 

47 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That list is new series only?

 

Believe so.  Think The Witcher S2 is a little below or a little above in terms of demand.

6 weeks straight. ?

On 1/5/2022 at 6:05 AM, ilovezam said:

Not sure if this was posted here already, but Rafe's original Ep 1 script was released, and everyone hates it. It's weird, to say the least, and it involves an explicit scene of Rand fingering Egwene, and Gitara asking Moiraine to kill the Dragon Reborn.

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/rvq3gw/show_someone_posted_the_original_script_for_the/

 

Yes I posted a link to the script directly on the News & Interviews thread for anyone wishing to avoid reddit.

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

 

Really enjoyed this from a non-reader POV. Calling The Dark One "an Italian chef" had me in tears hahaha

 

 

 

Yes I just watched that one and the EDN E8 reaction yesterday (they noticed that he looked like he shopped at Banana Republic ?).    The theme I am seeing from the non-reader reactions is that they mostly all intrigued / hooked going into S2.   

6 hours ago, Katherine said:

 

So interesting that you posted this, because this morning I was going through this all in my head. 

 

Are/were you a book fan of The Witcher? I wasn't so I went in to watching S1 without any prior knowledge of the books. I often wonder if that is why I was able to enjoy it so much (despite confusion when it came to rules of magic etc.) 

 

I will go ahead and say that I think that wold building and magic was explained/shown better in Season 1 of WoT than in S1 Of the Witcher. (but maybe my background knowledge of WoT is why I think this?)

 

But IMO there is just no question that production quality and writing are superior in Witcher S1 and S2. THe entire time I watcher Ep1 of Witcher and he was talking to that boar guy and looking at the make-up and CGI combo...... I couldn't help wishing our Trollocs looked that good! 

 

I also disagree that Cirri is a Mary Sue. A huge amount of her arc in season 2 is training and really having no clue how to do what she is doing. Her inadverdent explosions of magic causes horrible things to happen etc. 

 

Egwene seems to have cured death with no training. 

 

Nyn can form supershields against mean voices in the ways and heal tons of people in one blast. 

 

Neither has had (on screen) more than a few moments of training at this point. 

 

 

No I havent read any of the Witcher books or played any of the games.   I am going to read the Last Wish short stories soon and go from there.    

 

Anyways as I said, currently I am trying to do my best to only compare the show 2 episodes in to WoT first 2 episodes.   My co-worker has talked a lot about The Witcher at work so I know that Ciri really is not a Mary Sue character - nor do I dislike her - just if I am being critical I currently see her as that after 2 Episodes.   I am quite happy to WAFO how the season(s) progresses.    

 

Costuming for creatures for example - after 2 episodes I think the only non human species I have encountered are Elves/Sylvan (excluding the Kikimora at the beginning of Ep1) - and there have been a total of 4 I believe.   So 1 on 1 I like the Trolloc practical effects better than the Elves (but I could be biased because I am somewhat pro Elf in fantasy and likely subconsciously compare them to Elves in other shows & books).    There have not really been any CGI involving the Elves that I recall so far, but I certainly would not dispute that the CGI was not perfect for the Trollocs.   

 

I do feel the writing in Episode 2 improved from Episode 1.   And it not like I think the dialogue in either show was either (a) awful or (b) the greatest ever.  More like if this was on a 100 (and this is completely made up for this example) it would be like a 75 vs. a 72 after 1 episode and now both would be graded 77s.    I try to grade it on how it feels to me (natural vs. stilted), and how it fits into the show (is it an expo dump?).

 

One thing I thought was pretty kewl of Jaxier was his comment about him being an exposition dump.   I thought that was a nice comment that worked on multiple layers.    

 

Anyways in no way am I trashing the Witcher, hopefully that is clear. ?

5 hours ago, divica said:

I can understand that you like wot better than the witcher, but there are things in the witcher that are miles above wot. 

 

You're certainly welcome and entitled to your opinion.   Atm am doing my best to judge Ep by Ep and currently none of what you have mentioned has occurred by the end of Episode 2 of WoT.     Basically watching The Witcher episodes each 2x and rewatching the corresponding WoT episode # and doing my best to grade them against each other. 

 

If that differs from how you or anyone else chooses to grade the shows that is perfectly fine.  I have zero issue if people prefer The Witcher to WoT.     

On 1/2/2022 at 12:32 AM, ArrylT said:

I just recently watched Episode 1 of S1 of The Witcher.

 

It is pretty difficult to grade a show on 1 episode vs another show on 1 episode.

 

But in this case The Wheel of Time did beat The Witcher in one very key metric (for me).   My significant other currently has no desire to watch any more The Witcher.    She is a major LOTR fan (books & movies), loves GOT, and has become a big WoT show fan (to the point that she is making t-shirts & other stuff, re-watching episodes on her own & getting ready to read EOTWf).   But 1 and done with Witcher as a show.

 

Personally if I had to grade both after 1 episode I would do it like such

 

Acting:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Cinematography:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Action:  Slight edge to The Witcher

Plot: Edge to Wheel of Time*

Writing:  Slight edge to Wheel of Time

Tone:  Edge to The Witcher 

Character attachment:  Major edge to Wheel of Time

 

My biggest "dislike" of the Witcher after 1 episode is that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Multiple Characters came off as very unlikeable, and a couple seemed to straight out be liars.  IE they'd make a promise or describe something & it was completely fabricated.    Ex:  Queen of Cintra tells her granddaughter she'll know when she (the Queen) will be dead.  Then she goes and falls out of a window slightly later on.   Impact to Ciri?   Nada.   

 

* - admittedly I have the benefit of having read the books (but she did not and neither did several of our friends) however for me at least the holes in the Witcher Plot are easy to notice and I am not looking for them because I have no desire to dislike The Witcher, so that was interesting.

 

I will keep watching The Witcher on my own.   But I think while WoT had some flaws in the first episode, it was a lot easier to deal with, because of my past attachment to the books, to be able to be accepting, and with re-watches enjoy the show more & more.   But when judging Witcher Ep1 on simply fantasy entertainment it was somewhat lacking (but like a 6/10 not a 1/10).   I simply feel no sense of compulsion to keep watching.  There where things that bugged me about The Boys after Ep1 but none of which to the point were keeping me from wanting to continue then and there.   But to each our own right?   

 

Anyways lots of time over the next months to keep enjoying my re-read of the book series, further re-watches of S1 and enjoy all the WoT show content out there.   

 

Have now watched E2 of The Witcher.    I will watch it again (like I rewatched E1 2x), but at the moment while the world is more vast in terms of locations used - it still feels smaller than WoT because the majority of locations are sets (imo) with a few outdoors, whereas the large majority of Ep2 for WoT was out in the open and the sets used felt vaster / bigger (Shadar Logoth / Whitecloaks camp).   A lot of the visuals are done from close ups, with the occasional CGI shot of what I am guessing is Aretuza.

 

Witcher definitely has a grimmer vibe after 2 episodes, and I still struggle to find a character I am able to relate to /like.   Obviously Garelt of Riva is good from an acting perspective, but as a person to actually have a connection with - not there yet - sort of like Mat post Dagger - seems almost tainted by his past.

 

Have now met Jaskier.   I think that thread earlier about the bards is misleading in the sense that if you go with first impressions - Thom is so much stronger.   I think that video for A Coin for your Witcher is quite good but that isnt how the song first is shown, nor was it our first instance of seeing Jaskier perform - so on that thread you're sort of grading first impression of Thom vs a glossed up Jaskier promo video.   I did like the contrast of how the audience in Breens Spring is enthralled by Thom while the crowd listening to Jaskier pays him to stfu.   But I honestly cannot see how anyone going on first appearance of each performing music can give the nod to Jaskier.    I'll make sure to re-watch the scenes of both in their episode introduced.   

 

It is still a challenge to grade a show vs. a show 2 episodes.    I think the Witcher is quite entertaining, but when I compare it to WoT and looking through a lens comparing the 2 on specific criteria I do not yet see a category where the Witcher has a major edge.  But I think that comes from ones perspective.    The Witcher world is coming off quite grim and most of the characters seem willing to turn on one another. 

 

 

Ciri at the moment is more of a "Mary Sue" than Egwene/Nynaeve.

 

 

 For those thinking Geralt is a better fighter than Lan well Lan 2 episodes in did not get ambushed from behind and knocked senseless. ? 

 

 

Updated:

 

Acting:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Cinematography:  Edge to Wheel of Time has increased

Action:  There is better action in E2 of WOT so they tie up here

Plot: Edge to Wheel of Time

Writing:  Going to say even, as the writing in E2 of Witcher improved for me a bit

Tone:  Edge to The Witcher 

Character attachment:  Major edge to Wheel of Time

World of (how it is shown on screen):   Edge to The Wheel of Time

Believability*:  Edge to The Wheel of Time

Pacing/Editing:  Slight edge to The Witcher (got weaker imo as the 2nd episode went on)

 

Just to be clear - enjoy the show - happy to keep watching it - but looking at it through a critical lens while doing the same with Wheel of Time it is going to be The Wheel of Time a couple of tiers ahead atm.

 

* - Did what happen make logical sense within the world, the way things have been shown,  and we're expected to understand.  

According to this site  $1 in 2011 is now worth $1.24 today due to inflationary costs.

 

Assuming $6 million per GOT S1 episode that is today $7.4 million

 

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2011?amount=6000000

 

Also no idea if GOT had to create their own production studio from the ground up (which was done for WoT).  

 

Anyways just noting between cost of inflation, cost of production & cost of covid measures (2 seperate covid stoppages on top of covid protocols in place) it seems reasonable to me to equate the budget amounts as being relatively similar.

 

I think WoT has had to spend more on production costs than GOT per episode.  For example GOT chose to (or got to) use a lot of pre-existing locations  whereas WOT has chosen to build from the ground up a lot of its locations - EF, SL & TV as key examples.   

 

You can view the list of locations filmed at here:

 

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_filming_locations

 

Whether we agree on the value of the $ spent is subjective - just feel that WoT has had more unexpected & needed expenditures so the value per dollar may be less.   We'll see how S2 goes.  And time will give us more information on which a basis ones decisions can be made - a quick look at both Wiki pages can easily show that we have a much larger wealth of information on what was involved in GOT at this time.

No idea how long this link will last - and will totally understand if Dragonmount deletes this post but here is (from twitter) a link to a really early script for Ep1

 

http://tvwriting.co.uk/tv_scripts/2021/Drama/Wheel_of_Time_1x01_-_Leavetaking.pdf

 

 

2 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Did Matt steal from Edmond's Fielders in the book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Was it known in Book 1?   Not sure.   But there is at least 1 book documented case of Mat stealing.  But to summarize from TSR Ch 7

 

"Soon after turning thirteen, Mat talked Rand into stealing a jar of apple brandy. Nynaeve found them asleep at Bran al'Vere's table. Their heads were hurting so badly that they didn't even feel the switches she gave them"

 

6 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

You see what you want to see, frankly. 

 

Absolutely, we all see what we want to see.    To be honest, I've tried each episode to find examples of this "men look completely weak or useless" narrative and I rarely if ever find it.   Simply nothing pop out at me as like wow they did men wrong here.  

 

Sure we can focus on Abell Cauthon -  but honestly he has so little screen time and zero backstory (when you exclude the books).   If someone wants to assume he is been weak his entire life that is their choice.  To me he is simply a flawed person who seems to have marital problems and not sure how to handle his relationship with his son.   I've seen lots of these men in books before.    The only decision, if I wanted to be on team Abell/Natti Cauthon, that I would disagree with is their not going out to look for their children.  And that is on both of them.  Both characters are portrayed as flawed so that is balanced to me.   It is not like Abell is being "bullied & domineered" (hello a certain Wit Congar in Book 1).   

 

However I am not sure how this choice could be handled (based on the current parameters of the time allotted in Ep1)  without changing how it made Mat look protective of his sisters, unless they went off as a group - and I have no disagreement if it was argued this did not work from a visual storytelling perspective.  Plus, while I doubt they will focus much, if at all, on either of the Cauthon parents, in future seasons, this could make for a potential - and as mentioned before - redemption arc, as they have hit rock bottom and look to each other and say this is what our marital problems have brought us to.  

 

But getting back on track to me so far from the "good side" if I am looking at how I feel from a gender stand point about their representation.   

 

Rand - amazing male role model

Lan - strong male role model

Stepin - strong male undone by mental health issues caused by bond/past history

Perrin - strong male role model reflecting on his actions

Thom - strong male role model

Mat - until the taint of the dagger gets too strong is a solid male role model  

Logain - decent male role model

King of Ghealdon - decent male role model

Agelmar - decent male role model 

Bran - decent male role model

Raen - decent male role model

other male warders* - decent male role models

Uno & other men in Fal Dara - decent to good male role models

Master Hightower - foolish but decent male role model (ie I respect he wants to find his family but think his choice was foolish - but I choose not to look at one action and determine a characters life representation based off of that).

 

Even Bornhald comes across as a solid role model (treats people of different ideologies he may even suspect are darkfriends with cordiality & respect).   Only Valda (who atm is more of a classic bully) & Padan Fain comes off as perhaps bad  role models - as they should.  It is pretty hard to make a villain look like a villain if we portray them as strong role models.  Although Padan does look like a badass in some ways so maybe I am mistaken.  He at least, like Ishamael, is someone I can consider a strong male character even if not a good role model.

 

However if others choose not to see these characters as solid male characters or good role models that is certainly their choice.   I have no worries or concerns about how men are being portrayed in the show based off of Season 1.  

 

I will certainly agree that others see each character** differently but I think this narrative about how badly the men are portrayed is one of subjective opinion and not factually based at all.   Most of the "facts" provided have been, for me, subjective and emotional.  I feel that the show has done a good job of showing good male role models in a world which is much less patriarchal in nature and partially matriarchal and partially neutral / balanced (in terms of power dynamic).

 

And I can certainly respect, even if it does not bother me, anyone who is disappointed by the change or removal of roles/screen time for some of the minor characters. IE no representation of Bran as Mayor.  But from a tv show only perspective, it is very insignificant to my enjoyment of the show.  I shrugged it off just as much as I did the way the barkeep in E1 S1 The Witcher was shown (I'd say he was shown in a weaker & more flawed light than Bran).

 

If the show fails it is not because of its portrayal of gender roles - but rather - like others have said - because the viewership has crashed, and we'll have to wait until S2 to see but right now it looks quite promising long term.  

 

* - Lan in Episode 4 said that the Warders were proud to serve, and not one of them at the campfire disagreed (to my knowledge).  These are strong men comfortable with their roles & not at all feeling domineered or weak.

 

** - ie there are people here who feel Perrin/etc is being portrayed differently from the books and I respect that even if I do not quite agree.

2 hours ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Again I receive the Bela reaction. What does this mean, friends? 

 

I use the Bela symbol as a form of creation.   IE if I think someone has created a theory, or sparked an idea or such.   Or when referring to Bela (or horses) or RJ (or other people who were involved in creating the books/show) etc.   

On 1/1/2022 at 11:17 PM, ArrylT said:

I may have those 2 charts inversed by error.  Either way top 10 in both being sold & read.  

 

Amazon has now moved the book to #2 overall in fiction most read & 4th for most sold (apparently they update hourly)

 

https://www.amazon.com/charts/mostread/fiction/ref=bsm_char_read_fict/ref=s9_acss_bw_cg_bsmmost_1d1_w?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-5&pf_rd_r=2TJBH799Y8SMCGA13NQA&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=b002db58-023b-4351-b141-a1a53581648c&pf_rd_i=16857165011

Every shop in the Borderlands

Inspired by a classic deadmau5 song - a little meme for those overly angry bookcloaks (people who would rather destroy something than allow others to enjoy it):

 

"At the present moment I'm not writing, I'm not on tv and I never had a tv show go to number one on a streaming servicet. I've never been featured on  Amazon Prime or Netflix. I've never released even an animated short.  But what I do know is that I've been occasionally reading fantasy for many years, and I have every right to speak my mind against the fabricated TV Show that is being released on a weekly basis, it's absolutely appalling. All these people think that, if you enjoy Wheel of Time and put it on TV, you're making something out of yourself, well you're making a mockery out of fantasy literature. I'm a purist, and I come from the underground,and I'm quite frankly, I'm sick and tired. And I'm here to go on these rants on message boards, because I know I will never amount to anything, and I need to make myself feel better. So when I'm not high on cocaine, I will sit in front of this computer till the cows come home. And continue ranting and raving about artists that are actually living out their dream. Cause I never will."

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/01/02/why-the-wheel-of-time-succeeds-as-an-adaptation-and-the-witcher-fails/

 

I like what they said here:

 

Quote

A note before we begin: Opinions and tastes are subjective, especially with reviews like this. Both of these shows have done things that some fans have liked and others have loathed. I’m not here to try and convince you that you should or shouldn’t like a show; enjoy what you enjoy. What I am going to do is dissect how these shows are in conversation with their source material.

 

now

From Reddit - here is the full Screen time, word count & talkative totals for S1