expat

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

I don't find the idea of a ter'angreal that could facilitate travel incredibly surprising. It's the consequences of said item that are the issue. If you have access to such an item it alters the world as it's value is immense.

As stated before, the slippery slope argument about traveling only works if the mechanisms are easy and fast to use.  Place enough restrictions on it use, as I tried to do with my proposed limitations, and it changes from an item of immense value to a magical toy.  If you think my proposed limitations were too modest then invent more stringent ones. I don't know why you insist on taking the anti-show premise that it must be world breaking when it's just as easy to decide that its mechanics limit it to a magical toy and enjoy the scene as written.  It's much more enjoyable to consider my glass half-full instead of half-empty, especially when both beliefs take that same amount of effort.

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

Some of those limiters maybe valid. At the moment however the only information we have is that they can physically transport to the FFH and it must have been targeted to that location.

 

1 Seems unlikely having 2 separate entry portals and they require channeling at both at the same time seems very niche. If you had the ability to make a ter'angreal that functions as this one does why would you limit it in this manner?

2 Having an anchor point for the destination is entirely possible even likely I think. This however does not address the problem that they are using it for a selfish reason rather than to further their goals of saving the world.

3 See 1

4 If the gateway as such works without time limitations from TV it feels a strange rule that the other end functions differently.

5 See 2.

 

This did not have to be an issue if the meeting was in the dream world it would have solved so many of the problems, but I believe the showrunners wanted so desperately to be able to say the sex actually occurred in the flesh they compromised the worldbuilding to achieve it.

 

I genuinely enjoy having discussions like these examining the inner workings of a world I care deeply for is interesting and fun. No one wishes more than me that I was finding enjoyment from this show rather than fault.  The level of excitement when I found out my favourite books where going to be on the screen was off the charts.

You have to demonstrate that they compromised the worldbuilding with this scene.  The books had Ter'angreals which had similar physical effects, so that part was in line with the established book worldbuilding.  You then introduced a slippery slope argument that this Ter'angreal could lead to unrestricted traveling.  I pulled some limitations out of my ass to show that there could be a somewhat plausible explanation that the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water which is enough for me not to get too worked up about the logic of the concept. 

I agree with you that the showrunners didn't give the mechanics of the scene deep thought.  They wanted something cool and theatrical.  However, that doesn't mean that the scene is inherently wrong or worldview breaking.

When I watch a TV series, it's because I want to like it.  To achieve this, I'm usually willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt and take the most generous plausible interpretation of their logic. Under these circumstances, I don't think this scene compromises the book's worldbuilding.

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

It is not a very deep rabbit hole when you are using a Ter'angreal to travel across the entire world instantly in a world where travel is limited to horseback or ships at it's fastest. It damages the characters who have devoted their entire lives to finding the Dragon Reborn to use such an amazing device solely for their own gratification.

Why is the idea of traveling through a Ter"angreal so surprising?  Such book Ter'angreals exist because the twisted redstone doorframes allow "travel" between Randland and the Eelfinn and Aelfinn worlds.  If the idea of using existing book concepts in the show bothers you so much, others can justify the scene by reference to the redstone doorways and imagining constraints on the show Ter'angreals that prevent them from being used for general purpose travel*.  I know that you disagree with this approach, but if I can come up with a (barely) plausible explanation for something the series does, I accept it and move on without overthinking it.

*One possible set of constraints:

1. Someone must make a weave at both TV Ter'angreal

2. That person must go to the location they want to "travel' to and make another weave

3. Traveling must be initiated by using both the TV Ter'angreals within a short period of time

4. Traveling back to TV Ter'angreals is limited to a few hours (the return weave disappears within 8 hours)

5. The TV Ter'angreals can only be linked to one location, to go to another location, then the process must begin again with step 1.

With these constraints, most of your problems go away since you must still physically go to the location at least once and return to TV and even then it only allows you to travel to the linked location for a few hours which isn't likely to be enough time to do anything except a specific task such as a FFH. 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

That scene meant less than nothing in comparison to the books.

Ha Ha Ha.  You, the master of hyperrealism for action sequences, are arguing that replacing a highly unrealistic fight scene with an appropriate scene of one power usage was bad. Notice the inconsistency?

At least you are maintaining your record of 100% negative comments on the show, even if you have to accept an argument you just spent about 20 posts trashing.

2 hours ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

I predicted the disparagement of Book (1-2-3) 4, and my prediction has come true... There are thousands or even more posts about TSR being so bad that the writers of the show have to correct the countless faults of the novel and improve upon Jordan's abysmal planning and execution...

Decrying TEOTW, TGH, TDR, TSR all the time, and decrying Jordan too... and they call themselves fans...

 

Words really fail me...

There is liking Jordan and then there is putting him on a 100 ft tall pedestal.  There is no way to write 12000 pages over 14 books (if we include the Sanderson material) and not have numerous faults, especially when examining the totality of the series in hindsight. Nobody is that good at their job.

From the series perspective, there are several things they are going to do that you might consider correcting Jordan's errors:

1. Fix what they believe is weak writing in the books.  They may not be correct in their assessment of the weaknesses in the writing or screw up the implementation of the fixes, but it is self-defeating filming things that you don't believe in just because they were in the books.  You can agree or disagree with their individual decisions, but there are certainly missteps in the 12000 pages or areas just weaker than the rest. You can just cut some of these problems because of time limitations, but others are integral to the plot elements/characterization in the series and you have to do something with them. 

2. Being able to take the entire series into account from the beginning allows a more concise/interesting way to deal with some of the subplots.  Even though Jordan meticulously plotted the books, they still grow organically in the writing and some subplots meandered and were unfocused.  Hindsight creates an opportunity for a tighter script.  Do you not think that the Faile, Sea People, Elayne's succession, Tower politics subplots, among others, were often meandering and unfocused?

3.  By their nature, the books were highly repetitive.  You couldn't assume that all the readers were up-to-speed on things that happened thousands of pages and years (real-time) ago, so Jordan had to constantly remind readers of things that had happened in previous books and the nuances of the characters.  The series will have the same problem if it makes it to later seasons because of the large real-time time-gap between the seasons.  Can it find a way to keep the viewers up-to-speed without constant repetition?  While the series might not have a better answer, striving for less repetition would be an improvement. 

45 minutes ago, Gudrean said:

I'm pretty sure "it" pertains to Rand? What do you think? @DreadLord31

Someone up thread said that the access ter'angreal was there.  If that's true, then isn't that the obvious target?  Wouldn't the greatest sa'angreal in history usable by women the best possible item?.

This might be the way to introduce the two large sa'angreals because the book's introuction wasn't filmed.

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

Okay thats just not right.

The trainable channelers can be drawn from every single age group from approx  14 years old till death.

You can only draw inborn spark users from around 14 to maybe 20 to 21 age group at a stretch.

So out of 1000 Ashman you have maybe 100 to 150  at most who are in the target age group and only 20% of those would have the spark inborn. So the true number is maybe 20 to 30. 

 

So if those 30 say had not gone to the Black Tower 22 of those would have died from power complications leaving only 8 to be neutralized by the Reds.

The Seanchan tested every young girl at (IIRC?) 14.  They were not finding 80 years old folks like the rebel AS were.

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

You do realise that you are agreeing almost point for point the things I have been arguing for while you claim I have it backwards.

Your statement was: "I have no objection to people enjoying shows purely for the spectacle or action sequences."  My point was that nobody enjoys the show purely for the action sequences, but well-done action sequences are a necessary component to the show. Which is why I think your statement was backwards.  Since you like nothing about the show, of course you didn't like the action sequence, and have spent the entire thread knocking it through its lack of realism without acknowledging that lack of realism is a hallmark of almost all action sequences.

We agree that well-done writing and acting are also necessary components to the show.  I'm glad we have found common ground.

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

No.

 

All shows to varying degrees of success or intent fall all over this definition. I have no objection to people enjoying shows purely for the spectacle or action sequences. But if your aim is good storytelling and world building you need to aim higher than making your characters dumb or incompetent to facilitate it, unless that is their character for the entire series.

 

 

I think that you have this completely backwards.  Exciting action sequences don't make a good series if that's all there is.  Acting and writing are important.  However, how many action-adventure series are considered good when the action sequences fall flat.  Trying to be too realistic is antithetical to most action sequences because real life just isn't spectacular enough for film.  Look the car's gas tank didn't explode when hit with 3 bullets, boring.

You can judge WOT by the same standards you use to judge all the great character driven entertainment available, but in the end, it is an action-adventure series and is expected to generally conform to the rules of the genre.  

Bad writing/bad acting = bad series

flat action sequence = boring (bad) series

I don't like the F&R franchise because of the bad writing/acting, not because of the nature of the car chases.  They are ludicrous, but exciting.

I don't think anyone is saying that if we consider this fight sequence thrilling (even if not totally logical) that the series is automatically good.  We agree with you that it will also need consistently good acting and writing going forward (not to rehash series 1 and 2 now).

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

Absolutely no moving of the goalposts from me.

 

Your claim was that the Red Ajah was rubbish because look 1000 Ashman.

I pointed out the facts that the

Only men with the ability inborn would ever manifest use of the power.

Of that small number 75% of those would die because they had no teacher.

Red Ajah can only react to reports of that small number using those powers.

Ashman actively recruited those with the ability to learn as well as those with the spark inborn and had access to travelling. All abilities that the Red could not possibly have.

 

Absolutely no moving of goalposts and the suggestion is disingenuous.

 

My claim that the Red Ajah was rubbish was because there were dozens of male channelers* in Randland and they were sitting on the butts in TV.  Now add the time it took to identify the channeler, the news of the channeler to travel to TV, the time it takes to organize a mission, and the travel time to the location of the channeler, it might be months or years between when someone started channeling and when the Red sisters arrived to gentle them.  So no, they weren't very good at their prime mission.

Also in the books, there was no protocol on how to separate the unlucky men who could channel and eventually go mad and the prophesied Dragon Reborn who was necessary to save the world. Every dragon was a false dragon by definition and they treated them all the same. How could any competent organization not have thought through the issue of identifying the one male who couldn't under any circumstances be gentled.

In 3000 years, they hadn't figured out how to do their job. That is the definition of rubbish.

*IIRC, the Seanchan, who found all female channelers, ratio of sul'dam/damane was about 4-1.  The ratio for men who could learn vs natural channelers would be higher because of the number of men who died when first starting channeling.  If there were 1000 male channelers in the BT at the time of the final battle, then there must have been something like 50/75/100 natural male channelers when the BT formed. 

5 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I think some of us are analyzing this so much because the battles were our favorite parts of the books.  It is what got me through the slog of Faile's Shaido arc, Elayne's throne chasing, Aes Sedai Tower/Salidar machinations, and Perrin's brooding (all the matters is Faile!).  I knew there was another fight coming -  Jordan did that so well.

 

As I said previously, I thought this scene was very well done regarding the One Power fight - though I still don't understand the Black Sisters walking away without killing the defeated Sisters.  For my money, they have nailed the One Power between the tower battle and Rand taking out Turak and his entourage - S3 might be the turning point for this specific area.

 

Though I still worry about melee fighting.  With the exception of 'The Blood Snow' there is still a lot to be desired for the mundane weapons - from their appearance to how (un)skillfully they are wielded.  But I did like that little blip of Perrin in the trailer though I never pictured him in plate armor.

The background for "battle" was a two line, off-camera mention in the book when Siuan sent the girls chasing after Liandrin and the other black sisters.  Essentially Siuan told them that 13 black sisters, including Liandrin< stole some power artifacts and killed some people on the way out.  As a TV show is based on show and not tell, a battle could be good TV while an off-camera mention to start a major sub-thread is always suboptimal.  While the "battle" was not book and will require a modified sub-thread, I would make the choice of a cinematic battle over dialogue 100 out of 100 times. 

9 hours ago, Mailman said:

If you could explain to me how exactly they would identify a man who never channels the power that would be great.

 

Are they just running round throwing shields at every single man they see?

 

The only way the Reds can find a man who channels is by tracking down signs of his use of the power. Since the only men to do this would be those with ability inborn that is a small % and then 75% of those would die after only a few uses of the power.

 

The Ashman actively recruited and tested for those with the ability to learn something the Aes Sedai were incapable of doing.

Moving the goal post here.  Your claim was that there were very few natural male channelers.  I replied that the number of Ashamen showed that there were a reasonable number of natural channelers and you moved to how were the Reds supposed to find these men.  That was always an issue in the book where the Red Ajah never really made much sense.  Once a male channeler was known, any sister could shield them, you didn't need a special Ajah for that. The books never even attempted to explain the mechanics of how the Red Ajah found the men.

While I am speculating since there is no book cannon, my imagined mechanics would be the Red sisters traveling the land trying to sniff out rumors of male channelers.  Even if a natural male channeler tried not to use the power, there would be local clues (some inexplicitable events, men going insane) that might indicate channeling which wouldn't reach the Tower.  If the channeler wasn't trying to be a false Dragon, the clues might stay local.  The Red sisters would be looking for these local rumors, investigating the area to see if potential channeling events are happening, and finally investigate the rumored man.  This is a highly inefficient method and would require the Red sister to be spread out across the land to hear the rumors.  Sitting in the Tower until an obvious channeler is shown to them would miss most of the natural male channelers.

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

If you want to enjoy the wheel of time on the same level as a story that launches a car into space to ram a satellite then that's fine. 

 

I am hoping to enjoy it on a slightly deeper level.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but WoT is a fantasy, action-adventure series.  It is not Joyce, Tolstoy, or Steinbeck.  There are interesting ideas in the books, but it isn't intellectually deep.  It has the same entertainment rules as other action-adventure series.  Good, exciting action sequences are part of the expected package, even though these types of sequences generally are not completely logical.

34 minutes ago, Mailman said:

The Reds remember would only ever find a male channeler if he had the ability inborn, which was rare and even then would likely only find those that had managed to learn some control without a teacher which eliminated 75% of those inborn the ability according to Moiaines numbers. So the numbers of male channelers would be incredibly tiny.

How many Ashamen were there?  Several hundred to a thousand?  While most didn't have the ability inborn, there had to be a fairly large number of natural male channelers that the Reds didn't track down.  In no way could they be considered competent at their job. They made splashy shows when chasing down false dragons, but like the other Ajahs, they mostly stayed in the Tower and played politics.  If they were doing their jobs, the only Reds in the Tower should have been the administrators with a large majority of the rest out in the world trying to sniff out rumors of male channelers instead of sitting in the Tower until someone brings word of a male channeler to them.

One final point before I shut up.  Why are we analyzing this scene so intensely?  Is our enjoyment of action/adventure movies/series tied up with the accuracy of the fight scenes?  If we spent this much time nitpicking the car chases in F&F, or the fight scenes in MI, or the daredevil scenes in James Bond movies we would find all kinds of silly inconsistencies and physically impossible events.  If we enjoy these types of movies/series, we suspend belief and go with the flow as long as the scenes are interesting and visually exciting. If we don't enjoy this type of entertainment, the nitpicking is a good excuse to use as to why we don't enjoy it, but generally not the underlying reason. When was the last time you saw an action/adventure movie/series and thought, I would like it if only that fight scene was more realistic?

Lets use our logic on other parts of these movies/series or on movies/series that invite serious logical analysis.

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the black ajah knows they will eventually attack the other AS sisters so have practiced (at least thought about) how to attack them.  They know all the attack spells sisters are normally taught, so they can have defenses against them prearranged.  They can develop (and teach) new attack weaves, not taught to the sisters, for which they have no defenses.

Now for some as powerful as Nyn, this preplanning is useless because of the power gap, but against surprised, equal strength sisters, this is a major edge which alleviates the number disadvantage.  Notice how they took Nyn out to keep her from wiping the floor with the black ajah, assuming she got past her block. 

A couple of points:

The yellow, grays, whites would have been terrible fighters since their whole reason for existing was anathema to violence.

The browns and blues had people who went into the world and might have needed to protect themselves, so individual sisters would have been proficient in self-defense, but again there was no call for projective attack weaves for either ajah.  

Bottom line, it is not unreasonable that the sitters from these ajahs were not accomplished fighters able to handle the pressure of a surprise firefight. 

I find the time to get off weave question focusing on the wrong issue.  Several times in the books, it was noted that the AS were trained to unnecessarily wave their hands during weaving.  While they could have done the spell much quicker, they waste time making physical gestures. So, by book logic, it would take noticeable time to cast the weaves.  Someone trained not to use the hand gestures will get the spell off much faster.

13 hours ago, Mailman said:

Come on there are 21 Aes Sedai in that room with only 5 Black and Liandrin is already shielded so it is basically 4 to 1 and yet the black wins.

 

The acting from Alannas warders is terrible knocking on the door instead of at least putting their shoulders into it was just embarrassing. Not even attempting to try and find another entrance if that door is securely locked.

 

Big change to the warder bond that just because you are Black Ajah now you enjoy the feeling of their deaths.

 

Why would you use the staff to beat a woman to death when you have the power to literally cut her in half with the power as seen in this spoiler.

 

The slow motion was poor. The act of leaving the Red Ajah excluded when the charge was being a dark friend smacks of an amateur political move designed to sow discontent within the tower.

 

She has proof that Siuan met with a man that can channel she can ask her a direct question.

 

This is the classic I refuse to like the series and I will find nits to pick at to show why the series sucks.  At this level of analysis, every action sequence in every action movie/series is terrible and consequently the movie/series is bad.  Yes, there are plot holes and illogical events, but sometimes you just need to enjoy the ride and tell the logical part of your mind to chill for a little while.

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Hi everyone, it's been a while. 

 

My main worry for S3 is pacing and how they handle the multiple story threads they are showing. Rand in the Waste, Perrin in the Two Rivers, Mat in Tanchinco (I hated the tease they shared of him the other week). I am worried because I don't feel sufficient work has been done on these characters, specifically Rand, to carry a season of action and fast plot. Episodes, events, characters will need time to breathe a little bit, and I don't know if they have that time. 

 

 

You nailed one of the main reasons that WoT is such a hard adaptation.  How they handle the multiple threads that dominate most of the last series is critical.  Given that there are often 6-7 threads going simultaneously, they will have to combine or eliminate some of them.  They also have to be compelling viewing outside the main plot line to keep the series from bogging down.

You have also presented a great refutation of the absolute "closer to the book", "concentrate on Rand's POV" viewpoint.  Once they split into threads, the other characters must carry the show.  If you question if the other characters have been defined well enough to trust they can carry the show in non-main plot threads, even with 2 years of ensemble-based shows, then a sole focus on Rand, like in the books, would have been disastrous.  I am less concerned about Rand since he is the focus of the main plot, allowing plenty of time to fill out his character.

10 hours ago, Samt said:

Not sure if you’re being intentionally obtuse here.  I said that some things are bad and should be excluded (meaning not included).  The obvious conclusion is not that inclusion is bad but that inclusion can’t always be good or bad.  Inclusion adopts the moral qualities of the thing being included.  @HeavyHalfMoonBlade seemed to be suggesting that changing the show to be more inclusive was an inherent positive quality(among other potential qualities) and that is what I am objecting to.  We have to base the judgment on the nature of the thing being included or excluded,  not simply on the fact that it is inclusive.  
 

I suspect that I can bring examples of things that you would find objectionable and not want to be included on the simple basis that inclusion is better than exclusion.  “Inclusion” or “inclusivity” are mostly code words in the context for something else, the substance of which is being obscured for rhetorical purposes.

Inclusion is not bad and should not be a priori excluded except in specific contexts. Sex/religion/ethnicity etc. of characters are generally window dressing that are not terribly important to the story.  In these cases, which make up the vast majority of fiction, I DON'T CARE if they are changed in an adaptation in an attempt to make viewers more comfortable or expand the audience.

I agree that where sex/religion/ethnicity are integral to the story (e.g, what it means to be Jewish in pre-WWII Germany, growing up black in the racist Jim Crow south, trying to function as a non-Japanese in the hetrocentric Japanese society, the trials of being a women in a patriarchic society), changing these characteristics must be done with care.  Even here, it would be perfectly acceptable to go SCi-FI and totally invert the characteristics (e.g, the Broadway play Hamilton) to subvert the audience's expectations and world view while still maintaining the heart of the story.  

Like everything else, inclusion can be done heavy handed/badly, negatively affecting the adaptation.  Standing pat can also be done badly and negatively affect the adaptation by feeling anachronistic and using unnecessary/discredited stereotypes which turns off the audience.

12 hours ago, Samt said:

Not being an inherent good and being bad are obviously not the same thing.  Either you aren't serious or have a below room temperature IQ.  

Sorry you can't read, but why didn't you quote the second sentence as well as the first?  "Some things are BAD and should be excluded".  Since this sentence came immediately after one which only talked about inclusion, what other concept could it be referring to?  I wouldn't have made my comment if it was just the first sentence.

9 minutes ago, Samt said:

Inclusion isn't an inherent good.  Some things are bad and should be excluded.  

So inclusion is bad.  What a sad life you are leading.

8 hours ago, Samt said:

The scene is fun.  The problem I have is that it effectively means that sword Rand never happens.  Obviously, you can still have him learn the sword.  But a big part of Rand learning the sword was that he couldn't count on using the one power and needed to defend himself.  It's humanizing.  But if he can mass power word kill way more people than he could ever hope to fight with a sword, there just isn't a good justification for learning to use a sword.  Thus, in the show Rand is always the fraud carrying the blademaster's sword and never the blademaster.  

I disagree with your assessment of the reasons for Rand training with the sword.  I always believed that the sword training was the physical embodiment of the "am I Tam's son or the Dragon" subplot.  The sword was an extension of his relationship with Tam (even when the original blade was destroyed). 

Given that that particular thread was unfilmable because it couldn't be made visual, emphasis on the sword training wasn't a driving factor.  Other reasons, like mental discipline or tactics training mean that it might be useful to introduce, but it should never be a major plot point like in the book.

The books always made the case that he could kill far more opponents much easier with the power.  Don't you remember the several references in the books to people asking him why he was so fixated on the sword when he had the power.

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

But it's not unimportant detail. Isn't major theme of series is Rand can't and shouldn't do everything himself. People argued reason he needs to be kneeled and saved by everyone else in s2 is reflection of that theme and reminder not to abandon his friends. And yet Egwene can do everything herself, she doesn't need to be saved from impossible trap, nothing can't handle her. Two protagonists are learning completely different lessons. Overall context is Rand useless without others, Egwene perfectly fine without others.

 

WTF man.  I was addressing a specific scene you asked me about.  So without discussing the points I tried to raise, you jumped to another scene you didn't like.  

To make it easier, the point I raised was that there are two ways to view the series, one from a more holistic viewpoint where the overriding concepts are more important than the exact actions taken to get there and the second to value the actions as discrete points in their own right.  Neither is objectively correct and is based on individual interpretations of what an adaptation should be.  Based on the discussion, it seems I am more interested in the big picture and willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt on the small details and you are the opposite.  You are more interested in the small details and really want to see them on screen.  

Given the difficulties of the adaptation, you will likely be continually disappointed.

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

You still not explaining. I genuinely do not understand. Why Egwene being saved by Nyn couldn't be filmed. Why was it necessary for THIS thing to be changed? You saying you understand, so please explain.

I went back and reread some of the thread and understand what you are asking now.  Primarily, I think you completely misunderstood the larger context that the scene.  In the books, the important issue was that Nyn and the others didn't abandon Egwene, risked their lives in trying to find a way to help her, and finally attempted a rescue.  The mechanics of the rescue are completely generic and uninteresting.  In the series, Nyn and the others didn't abandon Egwene, risked their lives in trying to find a way to help her, and finally attempted a rescue.  The series was true to the important element of the story and also attempted to highlight Egwene's character by changing the (unimportant) details of the rescue.  I think that it is telling that you concentrated on a specific set of actions as the key to the scene instead of the broader overall context the scene was trying to tell.   I think this is one of the important disconnects between us, I am trying to see the series from a holistic/emotional level without being too caught up in specific actions while you see the actions themselves as a fundamental part of the story.