DigificWriter
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Posts posted by DigificWriter
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27 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:
an Aes Sedai can state what she thinks is the truth even if she is wrong
And herein lies the problem with the situation in question.
4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:With all due respect, if you didn't read the books or enjoy them, maybe don't try to argue about what the Oaths do and don't allow?
Because again, you're incorrect in this, and the above quote shows that you're incorrect due to lack of knowledge.
It's perfectly valid to not like it, or for it not to work for you, like my last post said, your personal opinion is just that. But These aren't plotholes. These are deliberate nods to the way the First Oath was set up in the books and how it works near constantly through the entire thing. There's even PoV chapters where Aes Sedai deliberately think through in their head how something doesn't violate the oath. (An example is a sister swearing that nothing they do will harm a person while internally thinking what they do may very well drive the person to suicide if it works badly, but the exact action THEY are taking is perfectly harmless.)The show presented us as viewers with a clear-cut scenario in which it is impossible to argue, based on the visual record, that Moiraine did not know that Nynaeve could Channel. Therefore, the concept of "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks, may not be the truth you think you hear" should not in any way be applicable.
Moraine pretending that she didn't already know where Rand and Mat were when she went to seek out Egwene and Perrin is also a scenario in which said concept should not in any way be applicable because in both situations, Moiraine is either directly stating or otherwise implying demonstrably untrue things.
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I don't like the novels and didn't make it very far into them.
And not everything that the Ads Sedai do or say can or should be excused by double-speak.
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4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:
They've also talked repeatedly about how this is an ensemble show
Titans is an 'ensemble show', but Dick Grayson is still the primary main character.
5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:And how it's about the journey of the Emond's Field 5.
Swamp Thing's story was ultimately about Alec Holland, but the main character of that series was Crystal Reed's Abby Arcane.
Moiraine is the primary main character of the Wheel of Time TV series and will likely remain so - regardless of what was done in the WoT novels - unless Rosamund Pike leaves the series.
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32 minutes ago, Chivalry said:
She's definitely the main focus of Season 1, but I don't expect that will remain the case. I expect it will be like GOT...there will be 3 or 4 sets of main characters, each story arc will be allotted a certain amount of time, and fans will complain that their favorites got short shrift in the last episode, season etc.
I disagree.
From almost the very beginning of its development, the Wheel of Time TV series has been centered on Moiraine. Rafe, Rosamund, and others have repeatedly talked about her as being the show's main character, she's the only character named in the series' logline, and Rosamund takes 'first billing' on every cast sheet and was the very first person cast.
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Moiraine has been made the main character of the TV show; short of Rosamund Pike leaving the series, I find it unlikely that this will change, regardless of what may have happened in the novels.
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It seems that people are either forgetting or ignoring the fact that the Dragon Reborn - whomever it turns out to be - is not the main character of the TV show.
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I don't believe that Aes Sedai double-speak can be applied to the question of whether or not Moiraine knew that Nynaeve was a Channeller because it is an indisputable fact that she does know Nynaeve can Channel.
I also don't see how Moiraine pretending like Mat and Rand weren't already in Tar Valon isn't a complete breaking of the rule that Aes Sedai can't speak any word that is untrue, but that's a separate issue.
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Based on what the show visually communicated to us with regards to Moiraine's knowledge about Nynaeve, she should have had absolutely no ability to obscure her words because anything that she said other than 'Yes, I knew Nynaeve could channel' is an outright falsehood and would put her in violation of her Aes Sedai oaths.
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47 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:
If the Ter'Angreal cannot be moved, I would say that either there is one in every AS quarter, which make it basically Traveling possible (to some extent) for all AS
I don't think this is a conclusion that we can definitively draw.
53 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:And await 2 years to convey an information it is not highly impractical ?
Just because they hadn't had face-to-face contact in over 2 years, it doesn't mean that they hadn't spoken to each other in over 2 years.
With regards to the two ter'angreal and the impracticality of hauling them aound, they look to me upon cursory examination to be around 12 inches in height and double that (at least) in width, meaning that one of them would require a single rather bulky saddle bag to transport, and if Moiraine were to need to travel lightly and swiftly on horseback, a bulky saddle bag would become an impractical accessory, particularly if there were other means of communicating with Siuan that didn't necessitate face-to-face meetings (which there most likely would have been).
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4 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:
Definitionally, 'could' indicates possibility whereas 'can' has a few more ranges of meaning. Using a pretty strict meaning of 'could' would make not make it a lie because there are a range of possible reasons for her being unable to channel at any given moment.
A few examples...
"I was unaware she could channel (because she has a block)"
"I was unaware she could channel (because she is untrained)"
"I was unaware she could channel (because she was angry)"
"I was unaware she could channel (because I was unconscious)"
All those would be similar in construction to how she responds deceptively elsewhere in the same episode.
With the word "can" you can do similar things to play off the different meanings of "can" to make it not a lie as she composes her response.
For example...
"I was unaware she can channel (because she is untrained and therefore doesn't have the ability to channel)"
"I was unaware she can channel (because I never saw her have the opportunity to do so)"
Her knowledge of whether Nynaeve is a channeler or not is not the most important part of the equation really. When she responds to questions about the location of Rand, she knows generally where he is, but she responds with a reference to her eyes and ears. It is generally the same thing here.
All of this qualifies as 'getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever' for me.
This whole situation is a plothole that the show created for itself, and it surprises me that it's not really an issue for anyone other than me, especially given some of the other incredibly nitpicky things that some people have chosen to focus on.
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It will never make sense to me how or why people come to the conclusion that changing or adding things equals a lack of respect.
Pivoting back to the ter'angreal, there are several things to keep in mind with regards to whether it makes sense for Moiraine and Siuan to have them at all and use them for the purpose for which they do:
1) The entire White Tower believes that Siuan and Moiraine are enemies, which is a false narrative that they have cultivated in order to hide both their true relationship and their partnership in searching for the Dragon Reborn
2) Because everyone in the White Tower believes that Moiraine and Siuan are enemies, there is no reason for anyone to even entertain the notion of the two of them meeting in secret for any reason whatsoever
3) There is nothing out of the ordinary about Moiraine and Siuan's ter'angreal, and therefore no reason that anyone would bother to notice them as anything more than wall decoration
4) Alanna is probably the only Aes Sedai that has ever seen the inside of Moiraine's chambers, but has most likely never seen the inside of Siuan's chambers and would therefore not have any knowledge of the pair having seemingly identical wall decorations
5) Constantly being on the road is both arduous and dangerous, and it would be highly impractical for Moiraine to spend hard-won resources to haul her ter'angreal around with her, assuming that she even could
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2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:
Moiraine said something like "I was unaware she(Nyn) can/could channel". Is that the same if she had said "I didn't know she can/could channel"?
I would say " Yes", and I would also view either of those statements as a lie because the show demonstrates that she did know that Nynaeve was a Channeller.
2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:Can those mean different things?
Not really, at least to me.
The writers could try to parse Moiraine's words in the show so that she wasn't lying, but that's just getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever.
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Who in the Tower do people imagine would try to lay claim to Nynaeve besides Liandrin, whom Moiraine blackmailed into submission?
Alanna is only aware of Nynaeve and wouldn't be pushing for her to be sequestered away in the Tower because doing so would put her at odds with Moiraine, with whom she remained friends until she had no choice but to reject her.
Siuan would back herself into a corner were she to reveal Egwene to the rest of the Tower and insist on her and Nynaeve being immediately sequestered as Novices because she only met with them - in secret - in order to push them towards the Eye of the World.
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Edited by DigificWriter
Without the pool cave confrontation with Nynaeve, Moiraine would not have possessed the knowledge about 'listening to the wind' being Channeling that she reveals to Egwene.
Therefore, Moiraine claiming ignorance of Nynaeve's ability to Channel upon her return to Tar Valon is directly contradictory to the information she gleaned from Nynaeve and later revealed to Egwene and flies directly in the face of Aes Sedai not being able to lie.
- JJLXL and WheelofJuke
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4 hours ago, Kudzu said:
Also, we don't actually know Moiraine is aware Nynaeve can listen to the wind. It's reasonable to assume she does, but all we actually know is that Nynaeve tells Moiraine the previous Wisdom could, but doesn't say whether she can or not.
Moiraine's conversation with Egwene makes no sense unless she (Moiraine) is aware that Egwene has been apprenticed by Nynaeve and is therefore learning how to 'listen to the wind', which means that she must likewise know that Nynaeve can 'listen to the wind' also, particularly since it is from Nynaeve that she learns that 'listening to the wind' is in fact Channelling in the first place.
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14 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:
How many people take baths with their platonic friends?
Anyone who lives in a culture where public bathing is a thing.
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45 minutes ago, JenniferL said:
I was reminded that the 13th Depository had an article about same sex relationships in Randland. Enjoy.
http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html
That was a fascinating read, and I don't even mind that it was full of in-depth Spoilers.
Regarding whether the confirmation of an ongoing same-sex relationship between Moiraine and Siuan on the show precludes later opposite-gender relationships for one or both characters, one of the hosts of the YouTube channel Maidens of the Spear views one particular opposite-gender relationship that happens for one of said characters as being queerplatonic, and it's entirely possible that the show could choose to take that angle should it adapt said relationship.
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Almost everything that happens between Siuan and Moiraine in public is a deliberate performance, including the Oath Swearing towards the conclusion of the episode.
The only exception to that is Moiraine's whispered alteration of the Oath that Siuan tells her to recite.
Siuan isn't actually expecting an answer from Moiraine when Liandrin forces the both of them into a corner by publicly turning Siuan's scorn away from her (Liandrin), but she can't very well validate Liandrin's accusation of favoritism through inaction.
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@Ralph Thanks for answering my question. I personally don't think we as an audience are supposed to attribute the contradictions in Moiraine's behavior and statements with and to Egwene and her behavior and statements with and towards Lan, other Aes Sedai, and even Nynaeve herself as being anything other than contradictions, but you clearly aren't me.
With regards to whether or not we as an audience can use a lack of visible weaves to determine whether someone is Channelling in-universe, though, the show didn't visualize Liandrin's weaves when she caused a rockslide to cut off the escape of the male Channeler that she and her fellow Red Sisters were chasing at the beginning of Episode 1 even though we know that that's what she did, so we as an audience therefore can't definitively say that a lack of visual weaves means no Channeling from an out-of-universe perspective.
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@Ralph I don't understand why you're trying to create a distinction between these things when the show itself did not, and would be genuinely interested in a more in-depth explanation.
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13 minutes ago, Sabio said:
But unless they actually change who the dragon is then it's just fluff tossed in. In the book there really wasn't alot of suspense as to who the dragon really was.
It isn't, though.
Within the WoT world as presented on the show, any person - up to and including the Dragon Reborn - could be reincarnated as a man or woman in their next life regardless of what gender they were in their previous life (or lives).
Even if the Dragon ultimately wasn't reborn as a woman in this Turning of the Wheel as seen from an in-universe perspective, we are most likely going to see past versions of the Dragon who were in fact women.
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Moiraine initiates her conversation with Egwene precisely because she (Moiraine) knows that she (Egwene) can Channel, and because she (Moiraine) has identified Egwene as a potential Dragon Reborn. She also explicitly identifies 'listening to the wind' as being Channeling to Egwene.
The plothole that emerges from that conversation is a result of Moiraine later stating - both in conversations with Lan and with other Aes Sedai - that she didn't know that Nynaeve could Channel, which is a lie based on the nature and purpose of her forest conversation with Egwene.
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The Dragon Reborn possibly being female is more than just simple misdirection and obfuscation of the plot for the sake of suspense. Its a representation of a direct change on the part of the show's production team to the metaphysics of the WoT world as presented in the books.
Even without a change to the identity of the Dragon Reborn, degendering souls is going to have ripple effects within the story as presented onscreen.
Why Do they keep acting as if the dragon reborn can be female?
in Wheel of Time TV Show
No.
Game of Thrones and the development process for that series is not in any way similar, based on what I can find, to the development process for Wheel of Time, which, as outlined by all available documented evidence, was expressly conceived as a television series to feature Moiraine as the primary main character and tell the story of the WoT novels through her.
The Shannara Chronicles did something similar, making Allanon the primary main character and funneling the show's narrative through him even though/when the story itself wasn't directly his.
Additionally, Titans has also done this, funneling all 3 of its primary storylines to date through Dick Grayson even though said storylines were not about him.