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Cauthonfan4

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Posts posted by Cauthonfan4

    ·

    Edited by Cauthonfan4

    18 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

    But you asked me to explain what I liked, so there is some of it.

    I can respect your opinion I just felt they did a lot to lose trust across the board with the lack of development of both the world and the characters, among other things.

     

    So yes. They did a lot of little things right. They screwed up a lot of major things. And episode 8 as a whole was...yeah...

     

    5 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    She's shown essentially the same as in the books, except she can channel a bit better at this point, but still not reliably

    Shes not shown being able to assassinate stuff.

    Shes not shown being able to mass heal near death.

    Shes not shown being able to control weaves in someone else's circle. 

     

    But again. Why nerf one Mary Sue but not fhe other?

    7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    By the way, no one is saying "Don't worry, it'll get better"  We're saying it's not bad in the first place.

    Just because you don't think it's bad doesn't mean others don't.

     

    Clearly many feel men got screwed. Just because you can point out some good moments doesn't overrule all the moments where they were shown useless or incompetent. 

    And yes. Some of you have said in fact Said men will get better treatment later.

     

    ·

    Edited by Cauthonfan4

    3 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    To be fair, in the books Lan is a bit of a Mary Sue. Everybody either loves or tremendously respects him and he's great at everything. Perhaps they nerfed him a tad so he has some room to grow.

    So instead they made nynaeve a Mary sue? Seems contradictory to me

     

    Either way point is nothing I saw in season 1 shows rhe men slowly becoming more competent. So this whole argument that the men are going to get better? Based on what?

    ·

    Edited by Cauthonfan4

    9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    which then several of us provided numerous examples that you didn't actually address but instead went back tot he points you felt were negative

    And if you go back it started with me pointing out rhat the men were shown to be reduced from the books and incompetent. 

     

    So yes. Men got a few chances fo shine but nothing close to what women had, and the times I saw men shine were largely underwhelming compared to the times men were incompetent at best. 

    9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    You keep saying this.  They haven't

    Really? What rules does the magic system follow? Because I haven't seen any rules. And a magic system without rules is not a wheel of time magic system. It's simply a crutch for the show to use to forward the plot 

    ·

    Edited by Cauthonfan4

    6 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

    Honestly I don't know what you want me to say. I can list out the things that I thought were done well in the show and explain why I liked them

    No. Not what I'm asking.

    What I'm asking is this.

    Even right up to the end they were showing men as wrong, incompetent and even useless 

     

    Nothing I saw in season 1 leads me to believe men are going to get better. Let's use Lan.

    In episode 1 he tracks down the trolloc food and defends moiraine. Great.

    As the show goes on he fails to prepare the EF5 for SL or even have a plan for it.

    He gets duped and drugged by stepin. 

    He needs outside help to track moiraine and does nothing un the final episode.

    Perrin - needs a blind rage to kill a trolloc.

    Fails to do anything when captured.

    Fails to do anything about Fain.

    Even the scene with LTT and latra reinforces men wrong women right. 

     

    Nothing I saw showed men becoming more competent, important or useful. There was no progression from "hey these guys aren't useful or helpful" towards them becoming stronger, competent, smarter, or helpful. 

     

    So please explain to me qhat you saw in season 1 that showed that men were progressing and getting better 

    ·

    Edited by Cauthonfan4

    13 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

    . I can't think of anything clearer that he is not "dark" than running back into the battle on Winternight for his sisters'. If he was truly a selfish coward he would have hidden

    I agree. He's not dark. But I think the entire mat is dark is a terrible way to to show his character and hate it. They should have left him alone.

    13 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

    But fair enough, personally I'd be pretty bored with Mat in the early seasons of the TV show if they followed book-Mat from EotW to TDR but to each their own

    I'm pretty bored with every show character of the 5 rhat isn't nynaeve up to this point. They did a shit job with character development and that's part of why they haven't earned my trust at all. They havent used the gime well. Thst and Throwing out the magic system. 

    7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Quit moving the goalposts

    I said men were shown as incompetent and reduced mfrom where they were in the books. So I didn't move the goal posts.

     

    9 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

    So it becomes about execution for me, and that is where S1 is extremely uneven

    And what has shown that they will balance that unevenness? Because Lan got less useful as season 1 went on. He was at his absolute best in episode 1. Defending moiraine.

    Even in episodes 7 and 8 we still see lots of men being "wrong, incompetent, and useless".

    3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

    still not enough reason to demand guarantees from anyone

    Then if you can't guarantee that the men will get tgwir payoff stop using it as an answer to why men have been held back.

     

    You'd be better off agreeing that men got held back, but hope that they will get a better shake in later seasons to equalize the nature of balance in the show. But I'm not seeing that at all.

     

    What I see is defenders making unsubstantiated claims backed up with zero evidence and acting as if they are right.

    6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

    Look, if my boss talked to me this way I'd tell him to take a hike, and he actually pays me

    Show defenders have been acting as if they have all the answers about what will happen to deflect criticism and wonder why were push8ng back.

     

    Commonly I see defenders saying "well season 1 showed women front and center but obviously that will change later". Based on what? There is zero proof to this claim.

    If we had seen men slowly getting more competent and getting training as the show goes on I'd agree with you. Instead even in episode 7 and 8 we still see men taking a firm back seat and being useless.

    ·

    Edited by Cauthonfan4

    8 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

    but couldn't you see that if they are putting in this description of Mat from Rand, and he so vehemently argues with Egwene about it, that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing by showing others viewing him as having an "inherent darkness", even himself?

    No. Because its more about knowing yourself.

    For example. I know I'm not a leader type person. I'm a hard worker but I absolutely am not a good leader. If you told me I was to be the Dragon I'd laugh it off too. Mat is a good leader but it's otger parts of his nature in the books that would make it obvious he'd be a bad dragon. The show has fundamentally turned our lovable goofball into something that isn't mat.

     

    Nothing i have seen shows the crew running this knows what they are doing at all. 

    They have disregarded the rules of the magic in wot.

    They have disrespected the AS politival prowess 

    they have disrespected many male characters in competency 

    They have thrown out the world building in favor of just making everyone generic  

    8 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

    but do you want Mat to be the jolly trickster laughing and joking and winking at everyone straight away? I think starting him off at a low ebb and him battling within himself, or seeing himself how Rand (and I'm assuming Perrin) see him, will be a much more satisfying journey.

    I'd rather have our mat. Who was the trickster who evolved into a great leader of men then some dark thief who steals from the dead 

    1 minute ago, EmreY said:

    hich is akin to saying the product being sold is subpar over and over again.

    Considering Amazon was calling this their game of thrones the product is subpar.

    The world building is subpar.

    The character development is behind book 1 (which is sad because book 1 didn't even develop them much).

    The magic system had rules and limits in the books which the TV show lacks and is inferior about explaining anything. 

    3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

    And if you buy a faulty product which (at the time of purchase) you have said is faulty, then you probably won't be recompensed, not should you

    At rhe time of purchase I was promised wheel of time with game of thrones scale.

    It wasn't until I actually started using said product that it became clear that I didn't get what was advertised. 

     

    6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

    The only importance of the pool is that it is untainted

    Uh no. It had a huge reserve of power which enabled the untrained Rand to pull off the stuff he did. It's pure Mcguffin through and through. And while I wasn't a fan of it, it at least gave us a reason to understand him pulling off what he did. The show though? Well rhey just power creeped the hell out of it 

    2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Examples of Strength:
    Lan in Ep 1 defending Moraine and wiping out trollocs.

    Meanwhile he can't track his own AS. Nor does he have a plan for SL. Nor does he advise them about the perils of SL. So congrats. He's a good bodyguard but bad elsewhere. That's a reduction of Lan from the books.

    4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Rand staying cool under pressure and shooting the Trolloc in the eye followed by stabbing it.

    And still hasn't gotten any weapons training with Lan, and of course had his thunder literally stolen. Yet another male character who was reduced from the books.

    5 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Mat sacrificing his own safety to rush out and save his sisters. (Something we don't see in the books

    Yep. And turned into someone who steals from his neighbors and the dead. Totally a change for the positive there.

    6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Perrin standing and fighting and protecting people (Something he didn't do in the books

    And losing his head and killing his wife, who didn't have to lose her head to win. Also who stood by and did nothing while egwene freed him drop valda. At least egwene spanked him. Props to her.

    7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Lan constantly leaving the group to go back and make sure Trollocs aren't getting close, coming back with only minor wounds despite being alone.
    Rand staying calm in Shadar Logoth and fighting to save Mat.

    Lan doing literally nothing in episode 8 but trying to chase moiraine. Great had of him.

     

    8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Mat showing his charm and grace even in a bad situation in the town with Dana

    Mat stealing from the dead sure was graceful.

    8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    Thom effortlessly dispatching a Darkfriend and protecting the boys

    Thom throwing a knife at the exposed back of an enemy. Oh and he also stole Mats money. Totally a good showing of what Thom was like in the books.

    9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

    could go for a while

    I  think I proved ny point. The men didn't hold a candle to the women. Whereas in the book both got time to shine.

    So unless you can guarantee that the show is going to balance out the huge advantage the women have in badassery over men so far, I'd say my complaints are valid.

    And seeing as you haven't seen the scripts and nothing in season 1 shows us that men are going to be made more competent you can't promise anything.

     

    2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

    Thom killing the darkfriend

    She never saw him. A simple thrown knife. Not nearly as badass as what nynaeve did to the trolloc. 

    3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

    Lan scouting back and forth and coming back with more wounds

    And failing to track his own AS is competent? His lack of any plan in SL is a bastion of competence?

    4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

    Mat spotting the Fade and creeping everyone out at the same time

    Meanwhile utterly ruining him by making him a thief. Ofcourse rafe didn't have a clue, he thought mat struggled the most with his "darkside" when we literally have perrin with his strength ptsd since the beginning.

    5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

    Rand Resisting the DO and blasting him away

    Oh my one thing a male actually did. Meanwhile they stripped away his character development. 

    6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

    Logain's cold open and shattering the axes

    Doesn't hold a candle to what the women did does it?

    7 minutes ago, Skipp said:

    Perrin rage killing a Trolloc(freaking savage

    Meanwhile his wife kills a trolloc without needing blind rage...

    6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

    Rand defeats the most powerful Forsaken at the end of Book 1.  Though you're right, that's not power creep, that's power dash

    With the aid of the eye. Not like he did it himself.

    8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:
    42 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

     


    Except that didn't happen

    Really? Show me where men got a chance to shine in season one?

    Lan can't track his own AS. And gave zero advice and had ho plan going into SL.

    Tam can't kill a trolloc but Laila can kill at least one.

    The boys never got any training and perrin did almost nothing all season. Mat has been reduced to a thief even steals from thr dead.

    LTT is shown to be completely wrong and Latra was evelevated to his place in the flashback  

    And the list goes on.

    12 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    I wouldn't call Lan's portrayal in the show "average Joe". He's shown great skill and Henney's portrayal of him is one of the highlights for me so far

     

    Lan literally couldn't even track moiraine, he had zero plan in going into SL and failed utterly to take care of the EF5 or give them any advice while there.

     

    So yeah, there wasn't one male character that wasn't bloody nerfed at best and incompetent at best in season 1.

    Meanwhile women were shown again and again to be powerful, competent and right. 

    1 minute ago, Asthereal said:

    To be fair, Rand (with Lews Therin in control) does kind of destroy an entire army of 100k trollocks in book 11, so if channelers could be spared to fight trollocks, they would get slaughtered anyway

    But slaughtering 100k when you have years of practice and have merged with someone who had decades of experience. 

     

    So if 5 mostly untrained people can wipe out 5 to 10k, is it really impressive for someone with that much experience and even more power to wipe out 100k over the course of an hour? The show is poqer creeping itself in a bad way.

    4 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    But a circle of five with dubious to no training killing 10k trollocks in season 1 might become a power creep issue later on, that's true. Though they plan to move up faster than the books did, so they might have the leeway. We'll see

    No you'll see. Between the magic system without rules, the bad world building and lack of character development, the bad writing, and the fact rhat men got a bad show of season one I'm not watching season 2 of rafe of time.

    6 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    About the women outshining the men: that's kind of the world they live in at that moment. Rand, Mat and Perrin leveling up, as well as the Black Tower, should balance that later on in the series

    Assuming they don't steal some of those from men to empower women further like they did in season 1. After all we had a chance to see the men training in season 1 and it was scrapped, but we still got to see egwene train. So many changes were done that took away a chance for a man to shine, and yet added to make men shine. Nothing I saw in season 1 makes me believe they have any intention of balancing the scales.

     

    They literally went out of their way to reduce men's chance to shine in season 1 (Tam can't fight a trolloc but perrins wife can, nynaeve mass healing and trolloc assassination, Egwene channeling her and perrin free and then stabbing valda while perrin does nothing, egwene gets trained but the boys don't, lan can't track his own AS but nynaeve can, and the 5 wiping out the trolloc army). 

     

    Time after time they could have given the men something and instead they either took their scenes or reduced their scenes.

     

    So while you can sit there and say "well men will get a balance later" but nothing has shown me they even care about balance

    16 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    I don't feel like women taking center stage at the start is a fair critique on the show. The most powerful people in the books at the start are women as well

    And yet book Lan would have not needed to be told how to track moiraine.

    Book Tam killed two trollocs while show Tam can't kill one, but Laila can with ease. 

    In the books the boys got time to actually develop and we see them learning from Lan, Thom and elyas. All scrapped in season 1. Why? They had no problem keeping egwene learning from moiraine, so why scrap the boys learning from Lan?

     

    There is plenty of examples where men were reduced, stolen from or just scrapped elements from the book and they added to the women. So yes. While the women were front and center in book 1 rhe men still got a chance to do stuff and come across as competent, learning, improving, and developing. 

    21 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    In fact, the show played up Logain a bit, and showed us more of the warders, so an argument could be made for the opposite

    And you ignore all the times men had their stuff reduced and women had the opposite. So no, I wouldn't athue the opposite in the slightest.

    9 minutes ago, EmreY said:

    20k is I think an extreme, given the initial estimate of the number involved before the Trollocs crossed the wall.  5-10K a minute would be a closer estimate (especially given what we see on screen), so 300-600K in an hour.  Assuming they're not all massed together, 150-300K, which fits with the estimate I have at the back (don't ask from where) of my mind of 250K.

     

    Either way it creates further problems with the story down the road. If he can wipe out an army of 250k at maradon and wow everyone, how many trollocs does the dark ones have at their disposal and why haven't they just wiped out the world with overwhelming numbers?

    1 minute ago, EmreY said:

    But remember that people who have no idea of what the bond breaking may cause may end up viewing two different scenes 5-7 years or so apart

    So like I said. Have her die during the battle like she did, and Have him go berserk during the battle, xlearly in reaction to her death. Mission done. 

     

    By your argument the Alanna scene pays off during season 8. Meaning it's not an immediate need. Meanwhile most our main cast has gotten almost no development.

     

     But then again why should I be surprised. We have a magic system and a world with no development too 

    43 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

    Also, he doesn't almost burn out and die in the process. They were linked and almost died. He will do it on his own and just be like "no problem"

    Linking is supposed to prevent burnout. And by then he will have had years of using magic, not a month tops.

     

    39 minutes ago, EmreY said:

    with one (I think, though how was he holding it?), non-stop for over an hour, though that does tire him out.

     

    Lord Rand, dextrous is he, the Dragon Reborn!  Strong as ten regular channellers, definitely

    So if 5 untrained channelers can wipe out an army of 5 to 20k in minutes, and rand is like an army of channelers and goes for an hour, how many trollocs is he going to have to wipe out at maradon? A million? More?

    25 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    But the show shouldn't be compared to moments in book 11 anyway, I think. The show is doing so many things differently that we should allow it to build on its own choices and justify them in later seasons

    Which is why I'm pointing out that it's problematic. If we've deviated this much this far and this fast, the power creep is so real that by TLB we shouldn't need armies of soldiers to fight the trollocs. 10 to 20 aes sedai at each front will be able to laugh at them. 

    27 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

    Taking the trollock fight away from Rand and cutting out Aginor and Balthamel makes perfect sense.

    Except you know, you already spent the entire season not really giving men a chance to shine and shunting them to the side ro let women be badass. So a series that is supposed to br about balance has no such thing.

    27 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

    But yes for the love of heck can we chill the holy fridge out?

    Depends. Can the show actually tell a good story, develop rhe characters, and somehow fix all the plot issues they have given themselves? Can they actually give men the justice they are due and not just have them around? Can the show actually flesh out its magic system or are we just going to have a Magic system without rules? Because right now the show has failed on all of these accounts.

     

    7 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

    Brandon Sanderson said they felt that particular 'coming of age' story -for want of a better phrase had been overdone

    Maybe, but they cut so much potential development with axing all 3 that we saw no real personal growth from most of them. Nynaeve obviously got lots of personal story and badass moments but her character hasn't really changed beyond her relationship with Lan. The rest...well its even worse. 

     

    ·

    Edited by Cauthonfan4

    I believe one of the biggest failings by the writers is having EF/TR be more worldly and subsequent cut training scenes while fleeing from the trollocs as well as mat and rand learning from Thom.

     

    Both of these changes have had a net result in lowering the development of our 5 main characters.