DreadLord31

Alright … you convinced me … these writers are definitely not that good to have written such character depth that subtly into a scene 😉 If it’s there … it’s just cause Ceara is awesome and understands her character and slipped it in! lol

I think that’s a pretty big IF … I think they’re going to use Matt and the to oust Rahvin. I do hope we get TvThom and more Elayne though.

This was well done if you ask me ... very ... "spirit of Elayne from the books" performance. Drinker, swearing - kind of wants to be "one of the boys" - but really, she's a bit naive and sweet and innocent - a princess. She "knows history" but hasn't "experienced the world". Again, here's a case where I'd say the show is Improving upon the Books. I didn't like Elayne in the books. Especially her whole pregnancy plot was suuuuper annoying. Ceara Coveney is a fantastic Elayne and is super talented and pretty and sweet. Love it.

It's subtle. But it's definitely there. Look of surprise when audience woman makes ... gesture. Looks at Thom, he gives her the "you asked for it" look. And then she "gets it" and goes for it. The Wheel Of Time | “The Hills of Tanchico” - Elayne Trakand featuring Thom Merrilin. Stream it now on WOTify. | Instagram

Ok. I’m back to 5 out of 10. It happens pretty fast but she does fall asleep. And … there’s reasonable doubt that they’re fire spears. Still bothered that they Definitely Did have a fire spear through the chest in Sammael one moment and he’s fine the next and a Shaido slice Egwene and she’s fine the next moment … Lot of that kind of stuff makes my confidence that they’re gonna execute the battle of the Two Rivers well … not high. And that would be a major bummer cause I’m pretty sure if this season is a flop they’re done …

Ok - I thought he was in the real world and that would be a dealbreaker (didn’t they watch their own Season 1?! lol). Seriously? I watched it like 10x and in slow motion and every time I thought they were swords. So it’s not … obvious. And that would be a dealbreaker for me (didn’t they watch their own S3? lol!)

Ok … then I give it a pass. But that didn’t seem to be the case the first two times I watched it (but I wasn’t paying close, close attention because though I like Liandrin and Kate Fleetwood I’m pretty tired of someone who was a very minor book character being the main antagonist.)

Oh also … I’m like 100% convinced now that Sammael is replacing Asmo. I really don’t think he’s dead. Oh and also - the reason my opinion dropped so much is because now my confidence level that the Battle of the Two Rivers next episode is gonna be good … has dropped to like 2% It’s gonna be crazy dark. It’s gonna be unrealistic. And Id bet you (even if you were Matt) that someone (Faile probably) or a whole bunch of people (all the main characters in the TR) seemingly “die” but not really! Lol

I thought the show tied the black fingers to making Grey Men and sucking their souls out of them? Maybe I misremember.

Upon further further inspection and reflection … I bump this episode down to a 1 out 10. lol Why, you say? That’s a huge reduction?! Well, Because (as someone else pointed out I think) the Cold Open says “Tanchico 95 years ago” … And ends with Ishy helping Liandrin. Ummm… if Ishy was free 95 years ago that raises a bunch of questions… and plot holes. Also, as someone else pointed out - I rewatched it like 10x in slow motion… those are definitely flaming swords they gave Avi. And … Sammael was stabbed from behind through the heart one moment - perfectly fine the next? And they had an Aiel slice Egwene and her fall back onto the bed and then fine the next moment to run out and then fine to watch the attempt at healing death. Sooo yeah… at this moment … man, the lack of ability to write/execute a good fight without someone being massively injured one moment and then fine the next… that’s really really bugging me now.

I’m not a Rafe defender (I’ve criticized the show and writing plenty) but I think many of the terrible changes were pushed, not by Rafe, but by Amazon people & writers who (honestly I don’t think have read the books) who want to appeal to the wider non-reader audience. I think this season Rafe has had more free rein & it is better. Even the people on here who don’t like it. You have to admit, this season is better! Upon a rewatch … I’ll bump this episode up actually to 7 out of 10. Dialogue between Rand & Moiraine was good. Still love the Tanchico stuff. Thom is my fav protagonist and all the antongists are all better in this turning of the wheel. I’ve softened on my Perrin/Faile thoughts - why drag it out - let’s all just forget about Laila and move on. Still think the amount of time spent on the Alanna stuff and the healing is poor…

I’m probably going to have to rewatch and think about it before I have much of an opinion on this episode. My initial reaction was … an 6 out of 10 rating. And my initial thoughts are: I totally disagree with @Mirefox about TvThom. I like the shows version of Thom a whole lot better. It never made sense to me that a Gleeman was a BA warrior in the books. This Thom is darker, weathered, has great lines & makes Gleeman a lot cooler (IMO). So I loved seeing him back … I just wish we got as much of TvThom as we do TvLiandrin (but yes, I do agree with you @Mirefox that neither of them are very much like their book counterparts at all - but I think both are improvements!) This Moggy is sooo creepy …and kind of gross. I like it. I liked the “interview with a Spider” scene a lot. Felt like the book scenes in that regard. I liked all of the Tanicho stuff. Especially Elayne singing. I liked most of the Cold Rocks hold stuff. When Sammael showed up as Lanfear’s “surprise” and Rand seemingly killed him? I went “whaaaaat?” And then I went, “hmmm… well, I’m ok with it as long as Sammael isn’t really dead or if he “comes back”! Sooo we’ll see… I’m either ok with it or really hate it. If you have a Forsaken who is trying to fight who is that easily killed and incompetent then I hate it. So we’ll see I guess… But I also had this thought: I disliked all of the Two Rivers stuff. Very CW level writing - like watching Arrow. Didn’t like any of the Perrin/Faile lines or how that is happening - fridges his wife and is now making out with someone he just met because (honor the dead by making out with the living?) Faile’s mother a darkfriend - bleh. I do like the theory that Faile is a vampire though!🧛 Vampire/Werewolf vibes for sure. I agree with what the majority of people have said. It’s lazy and poor writing to stick Alanna full of arrows and then have teen girls heal her because you need her healed. Totally disagree with @DigificWriter there. They’ve ruined any “stakes” because they average a “fake-out death” per episode (see above thoughts on Sammael!) I’ve contended for awhile now that GoT was widely popular as books & Tv because the stakes were real. I remember reading the first book and when I thought … I don’t think I’ve ever read a book where the only character in it that I actually liked … actually died at the end.GoT had real stakes. And most shows and writers don’t really kill main characters because of … contracts with actors and because they get attached to their characters. But it’s actually more believable because in real history and life - people, good guys, heroes - die. WoTTv has no real stakes. Neither did the books though. Unless you’re a side character that they introduce for the very purpose of killing. And even then they might bring you back (I’m looking at you - Uno!) So if your season finale is Now you’ve lost all that punch… nobody believes that they won’t just “be back” … somehow … soon.

Moggy needs to instruct her Grey Men to go for the throat … I mean (this is pretty much spot on with the books) can’t a souless assassin catch a break?!

Honestly, I think the show should just go all out with their strengths - the Chosen win in this turning of the Wheel? 🙂 I mean, did you see that Darth Lanfear force choke? 😉

I find it interesting too. EDN reaction videos are kind of fun for this very reason. My point was simply that one can’t really critique a book-lovers disappointment in the show due it’s changes from the books if you’ve never read the books and don’t have a reference point for why they feel the way they do! Because as a book fan, when your expecting a Tv show that was more like Episode 4 of this season (not a 1 to 1 adaptation, but as close as possible with the time-constraints) but you mostly get episodes like S3E5 (I don’t think any of the scenes were from the book?, but it had a WoT-ish feel I’d say) … You experience some loss - even if you accept/like the show for what it is.

I, for one, won’t believe it even if I do see it. Seen plenty of main characters “die” already … and they’re just fine 😉

It seems like we’ve massively diverged from my actual point … which was that Jordan wasn’t especially good at writing romance & that was an area the show could improve (debate if the changes they’ve made are actually improvements)… but is anyone arguing that Jordan was a master of romance? 😂

Costuming and casting for the show has been golden. Best part of the show. Sooo not that hard or expensive to put some red wigs on people 😉

Yes - I think most of us didn't like those relational choices in the show (especially fridging Layla right away) - but if you have really limited time and want to tell the Faile/Perrin arc and really dig into Perrin's struggle with violence and peace - one can understand the change, right? I did like the running joke between the boys and they were younger in the books. But still - you wouldn't agree that romance wasn't Jordan's strong suit? Rand's relationships - I mean - if you are trying to being an apologist that a polygamous relationship could be alright - I can see that. But from everything I've ever heard and read about actual polygamous marriages in history and our world -- they're not as "nice" as Jordan wrote them (For example I've been to Kenya multiple times and seen what happens to widows who were the second wife! I have Mormon friends - and it's all horror stories). Or if you read the Bible, there are lots of examples of polygamous marriages - that are all disasters. But anyways ...

Honestly, I'm liking the show (for the most part) in this season. But @DigificWriter haven't you said that you haven't read the books? You're a show-only person? Maybe I'm remembering wrong ... but I don't see how your opinions are even remotely valid when it comes to all these people who LOVE the books feeling that the show is complete garbage due to it's unfaithfulness to the books (when you have no idea how good the books are or just how much the show has diverged from them). Seems like a fish yelling at a bird that it's flying wrong. But I apologize immediately if I've miss-remembered and you ARE actually a book-lover/expert. Personally, I've read the whole series twice (the first time being almost 20 years ago now) and I'm about 1/3 way through a third time. AND also - I just love fantasy TV (and there's very little good fantasy tv out there at all anymore)! So I end up - much like how Lauren at "Unraveling the Pattern" describes his Tv show watching experience - being super hyped for the show, seeing it and being a little disappointed (because of things I had hoped to see but didn't) - but then rewatching and giving grace - and also, for the most part liking it and seeing that they made changes that they have made are for a purpose. If you watch Rafe's most recent interview on the Dusty Wheel with Matt Hatch - you see that he IS actually very thoughtful about how to Adapt the Whole Story in the time restraints given. So I do believe over against say @Mailman or @Sabio that they are making changes with the intention of trying to be faithful to the overall story - and telling it for TV when you have very limited time. That being said ... here are a number of complaints (that IMO are legit) that are just bad writing/bad Tv/and also VERY unfaithful to the books (source material): #1) Fake-out deaths. Lowers the stakes for when a character is attacked. Makes me not believe you/trust you. And in 3 seasons, every-single-main character has died (by my count, 2 or more times, by book standards). Now ... to be fair ... there were a couple "fake-outs" in the books (but not many!) #2) Inconsistent metaphysics. Does anybody have any idea in the show what the Shadar Logoth dagger can do or where it is? The Horn? One Power levels with vs. without a Sa'Angreal? Power levels between different Aes Sedai? Dreamers strengths/weaknesses? Jordan was a master of metaphysics. #3) Cultural depth. Jordan was a master of creating entire cultures with different customs, ways of seeing the world, values, ect... and he was meticulous in depicting them and being consistent with them. In the show, every culture is apparently a mix of all the other cultures. Why say, "Rand stands out as an Aielman" because he has red hair...if the Aiel are all mixed and every other culture is all mixed too? At this point, half-way through Season 3, do you as a Tv viewer feel that you really know what makes Aiel an Aiel (I mean they don't even consistently veil to kill even when it has an immediate payoff within an episode!)? Do you know how the different cultures feel about nudity/sexuality and why (or is polyamory ok everywhere in TvRandLand?) Can you see, understand, or even agree with the Seanchan's worldview on woman who can channel (or are they just those awful bad guys?)? What do you know about the Sea-Folk? The Andorans? The Game of Houses? The Tua'athan? Ect... Now to be fair to the show, they don't have much time, and they have tried - in certain clever ways - to lean into this. I would give them - like a 5/10 on attempting to depict different cultural values. Because of time constraints maybe would up it to 6/10. But to @DigificWriter's credit ... over against the hard-core book fans... we book readers should easily be able to admit that there are aspects of Jordan's writing that were NOT that good, that the Tv writers can improve and in some cases have improved! For example: 1) The Forsaken were 2D, unbelievably incompetent, and not relatable or fleshed-out hardly at all in the books. This is the shows strongest change/improvement (and I haven't seen people complain about that!). The shows Forsaken scenes are GOLD. And making Lanfear a main character is an amazing change. Ishy was more believable. Moggy is scarier. And in just a few scenes with Rahvin, you know he's gonna reak havoc. 2) Jordan really sucked at writing romance. The relationships in the books were kiddish/not exciting/not something you wanted to be part of yourself or admired. And actually, at points, really kind-of gross (read Matt/Tylin or Elayne/Thom or Faile/Perrin). The show has tried to make the relational drama more relatable and real. To me it comes across as a bit CW'ish, but it's still probably better than the books romances. 3) In the books there were massive sections that were boring as hell and didn't seem to have pay-off or a major point. Come on book readers, be honest ... we all had to endure the slog ... we all had multiple parts where we thought, "how long is this White Tower plot or Shaido/Faile plot or the whole CoT book ... going to go on"??? The show can't have that. You can't have an entire episode even where nothing happens and there wasn't an arc of an inciting event, tension, struggle, and resolution. Each episode has to be a story that is interesting in it's own right. And, for the most part, they are doing this. So. I give this episode. A 6 out of 10. I'd bump it up to at 8 out of 10 if it wasn't so dark and I could actually see what happened though!

? Is Gaul in the show? I somehow missed that! Ah yes - already corrected - Rhuarc. Pretty sure that Gaul is cut. I’m in this camp. I didn’t think it was bad - but it wasn’t great either. It was decent Tv. I agree, and this would be my second biggest complaint that has nothing to do whatsoever with the books. I have no idea if the Whitecloak fight was good or not cause I couldn’t see it! This would be my biggest complaint. Knock it off with all the fake-out deaths. I bet they average 2 per episode thus far! In this episode there were at least 5? (Alanna got shot with like 15 arrows and is gonna be fine? Maxim stabbed. Elaida stabbed multiple times. Perrin stabbed. Dain knifed. ) At this point, I’m convinced that Alanna is just gonna heal Natti - she’s fine 😉

Yeah, I was impressed. Thought they did really well with this past episode. And find it interesting that Rafe said in his recent episode on the Dusty Wheel that he thinks most viewers will find episode 7 even better! Is that when we’ll get the Red Stone Doorframe??

This past episode, I would say, is the best yet because they did their best to give us the book - and because they were not attempting to “deepen” or “improve”. Just give us Jordan’s WoT as close as you can & the show would be a success. Obviously we all understand that there are limitations and need to have “changes” for a dif medium and because you only have 8 seasons and 8 episode seasons. So the example you gave is a good one. We couldn’t have all 9 steps back because there isn’t time. Janduin is a good place to start. But not having Janduin mask to kill is … a fail … book or show. “Improving” the Lore? Like they tried to do in first 2 Seasons with stuff like “degendering souls”? Has demonstrably been a massive fail (hence the real possibility the show is cancelled after this season). The closer they get to “book faithful” the better it is (like this episode)!

How do I make a gagging face at the notion that the Tv show has “deepened the Lore”? If that’s what the showrunner and writers are aiming to do than even after this wonderful episode… I pray the show is cancelled immediately!

If this is true and Rafe said that - I’m back to “I really don’t trust this showrunner knows what the books were about/loves what Jordan wrote.” But anyways. Is there pretty much widespread agreement that this was the best episode yet? That’s what I’m seeing from the content creators/book readers!