I think Rand will live. The Finns see ALL of the threads of a person’s life. Certainly they knew of the future presence of Lews Therin in Rand’s head. What if “to live, you must die†is speaking to the TWO people only the Finns know of at that point?

 

Min’s vision of Rand and “three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it†does not mention who or how old the women are. Also, Min’s viewings are not always completely literal.

 

One other thing, the Finns told Mat when he demanded to know his fate, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again (emphasis mine)…"

 

He also had to die to live per say. If he had not gone to Rhuidean, he would “have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

 

Mat has already been brought back from death, and that didn’t even take the OP. I’d be interested to see Perrin go through the Aelfinn door. The three have been so closely linked that for Rand & Mat to die & live I wonder if Perrin has a “resurrection†in store.

Why is it assumed that the soul of the dragon is not a hero of the horn. Hawkwing recignised him at falme. That would suggest that before being reborn the dragon was in tel'aran'rhoid.

 

It is my belief that all souls that the pattern spins out for a specific purpose reside there between incarnations and are thus tied to the horn. In that light, they are all the Creator's Heros. Spun out to accomplish what is needed to turn the age lace in the direction needed. Further, I propose that all hero's of the horn are ta'veren as well, though all ta'veren are not hero's of the horn.

 

I dont see rand dying and returning from TAR as how he will live again, that just seems to complicated. It is an interesting theory though !!

i personall think rand will actually die but come back in a way that no-one suspects and in a way we have not seen before,i hope he does,i don't get all the rand haters...i mean he had got to save the world..his reward???death,and then half of the world s tryin to kill him

Someone said something in a previous post that realated to my thoughts on Rand living but Lews dying.

 

What if when the finn's said "to live (concerning rand) you must die" (then speaking to Lews). That would make Lews happy seeing as how he REALLY wants to die, and make Rand happy because he wants to live out his days with he 3 wives...Therefore proving that even if sadin is clean, Rand is insane ;)

Moiraine said that death was something that could NOT be healed.

 

Except all ASedai said that severing couldnt be either.

 

Maybe Nyn or Moiraine figure out a way... OR its done through both Saidar/Saidin combo.

 

Argonath

I don't think that Rand will live. I actually kinda like him, but he deserves to rest. I don't really support the Moridin swap theory (although it is interesting) and I think Rand would kind of want death. His body is deteorating, he has a madman inside his head and he himself may already be losing his mind. But I'm not very sure about this simply because of one factor, his wives. But he if he breaks the world, and in the process kills everyone around him, he will be just like LTT.

It has been plainly shown to Rand that there is a way for him to live after the Last Battle. The way hasnt been explained yet, but a way definitely exists. Id be as much annoyed with RJ if Rand was dead at the end of the series as I would if Tarmon Gaidon happened. I want to see how RJ puts Rands death into it, and how Rand returns, which he really REALLY should

B) Elaida once had a premonition that the Andor Royal Family (Elayne) will play a vital role in T'G.

 

Gotto comment on that.

 

Elaida made a mistake, Its not the current royal family of andor it means, it the royal family at the time of the premonition. Aka Tigraine, Aka Rand´s mother.

 

And yes, Id say rand is going to play a vital role in TG :)

 

//dyring

Quote "Id be as much annoyed with RJ if Rand was dead at the end of the series as I would if Tarmon Gaidon happened"

 

yea I meant if Tarmon Gaidon never happened. dont laugh

B) Elaida once had a premonition that the Andor Royal Family (Elayne) will play a vital role in T'G.

 

Gotto comment on that.

 

Elaida made a mistake' date=' Its not the current royal family of andor it means, it the royal family at the time of the premonition. Aka Tigraine, Aka Rand´s mother.[/quote']

 

 

Actually the foretelling was that the royal line is whats important. A line is a sequence of points, so i rather doubt it was referring to any one member of that line in particular. And we've seen as much, Rand, Morgase, Galad, Gawyn and Elayne have all played important parts.

 

It has been plainly shown to Rand that there is a way for him to live after the Last Battle. The way hasnt been explained yet, but a way definitely exists.

 

When was a way to survive Tarmon Gaidon plainly shown?

Yes, Rand will die and his body will be laid to rest at Tar Valon. This will lead to the legend of al'Thor who was laid to rest at Tar Valon which with several thousand years and a couple of mispronunciations will fade to the myth of Arthur who was laid to rest at Avalon (alla Aurtherian Legend).

I doubt that... for one thing Rand's world is our future, and i doubt the legend would last through a full turning of the wheel.

Why does everyone want Rand to die? If he does die it shouldn't be because of the effects of Tarmon Gaidon, and if this happened in the 2nd and 1st age, why is the Dark One keep springing out again? It is impossible to kill or lock up the Dark One Permanently? Is their no way we can reclaim Lan's homeland? Will the Blight ever be able to support human life again?

 

-It would would be really annoying if the Dark One can get free every age.

Ever considered the fact that the Finns did not see Rand Al'thor...they saw the The Dragon Reborn.

 

The Dragon reborn has to die in order to fulfill the prophecy and if he dies he will live on in the wheel of time, waiting to be reborn again.

 

He Rand doesnt die, the Dragon reborn is dead since the prophecy was unfullfilled and the Dark one will rip the wheel of time apart.

It did occur to me, but the problem is there is other evidence suggesting that Rand himself as he is at current will not die. The corpse that fades away, the masks, Egwene's dream of people mourning a man who is not yet dead.

I doubt that... for one thing Rand's world is our future' date=' and i doubt the legend would last through a full turning of the wheel.[/quote']

 

Well you're half right Rand's world is our future as well as our past. How is this possible? Because in the WOT series time is a wheel and therefore is circular. Robert Jordan himself has said several times that his characters are the source of our legends and that we are the source of there's.

 

If you do even the most basic reading in Norse mythology you will notice the striking parellels between the lives of Mat and the norse god Odin, and those between the lives of Perrin and the norse god Thor, who was known as Pern in Galic mythology. Moreover, the parelles between the lives of Rand and King Aurthur should be obvious as well, most notably that each had to pull a sword from a stone to prove his birthright. A few other theories that have be put forward are"

 

Thom Merilin = Merlin

Egwene al'Vere = Gwenavier

Galad = Sir Galahad (Both are obsessed with always doing the right thing though Galahad is viewed in a much for positive light for doing so)

Gawyn = Sir Gawyn

Lan = Sir Lancelot

Mordin = Mordred or alternativly that the name Mordred is derived as a combination of the names Mordin and Damondred. This has lead some fans to postulate that Rand's mortal wound will be delivered through a combined effort on the part of these two.

I addressed this, i doubt such legends could survive in such detail including a full turning of the wheel, which includes humans evolving into mamels from primordial ooze.

 

I'm a religion major, you don't need to recite religious parallels to me. That being said you can't use to them to draw deductive answers on how the series will progress. For all the connections and parallels you've listed there are twenty more he has broken, and he's drawn on a whole bunch of other tradition as well... the inherent concept of the bhoddisatva in the nature of Rand, the wheel of time and the nature of the reality in which they live from buddhism, the Doaistic idea of immortality, the dream world, and concepts of war... on and on. In many ways some of these concepts are even stronger then the Norse Mythology, which has only to date been used in establishing character bases.

 

He uses religion and mythology to colour his story, and enrich it, but not to write it. The Wheel of Time is not Arthurain Legend by another name any more then its a retelling of the Baghavad Gita or the tale of Gilgamesh... all have little parallels throughout the text, but not deductive connections.

It is odd though, since there are obvious parallels between current events in Randland and our mythologies (suggesting that we are in Randland's relative future) and references in their time to events(albeit highly corrupted) OUR time in their world as the oldest mythologies, suggesting that there are vague remaining memories of our Age from before Randland's relative "position" on the Wheel. I'm referencing the stories requested by Egwene in tEotW (The Gleeman) about "Lenn" who "flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle of fire", "Salya walking among the stars", "Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind", "Mosk the Giant, with his Lance of Fire", "Alsbet, the Queen of All". There seems to be rememberance both ways.

Its a fictional text. Our world is clearly myth for developmental backstory, whereas our myth is being used to develop character world.

 

But in terms of the fictionality RJ has always incorporated our world which includes our past... evolution included. I dont see how myths of Rand's age can survive that into the next turning.

 

But my main point is that we can't draw deductive links. We can't suggest that Rand will be layed to rest in Tar Valon because Arthur was layed to rest in Avalon. The nature of the stories are too dissimilar, and there are too many other mythologies interwoven as well.

The finns might just mean that he has to die before he can be reborn...

But I have to confess that I am a fan of happy endings if they're well written and I hope Rand survives.

It did occur to me' date=' but the problem is there is other evidence suggesting that Rand himself as he is at current will not die. The corpse that fades away, the masks, Egwene's dream of people mourning a man who is not yet dead.[/quote']

 

But all this fits into the dragon reborn theory aswell. There are 2 persons in Rands body. His body is just a shell, therefor the burning corpse with a man who is not dead.

 

I dont remember all the viewings and dont have the books down here with me so I cant mention the others, but I am pretty certain that Rand dies but the dragon lives on.

I dont see how myths of Rand's age can survive that into the next turning.

 

Well see how or not, myths from Rand's time apparently can survive into our age (and vice versa). This comes not from me but form the mouth of Robert Jordan himself. I have read more that one interview in which he clearly stated the our myths come from Rand's time while there's come from our time. As to who is in who's realtive future RJ isn't saying, not yet anyway. Whenever asked if tWoT occurs in our past or future he simply answers by saying "both" and he never elaborates.

 

I confess that I have only read up through "Path of Daggers." But I don't remember evolution ever being mentioned or aluded to (please enlighten me if I am wrong). While I do believe that evolution occured in the real world I always got the impression that RJ's fictional world had more of a Creationist slant, that being that humans had existed since the begining of time, and therefore are present in every age. I mean if you start counting points in Earth's history before human's evolved as ages on the wheel of time then that would mean that for those ages to come again that human's would either have to die out and then be born again or that they would have to deevolve and then reevolve. Of course either of those ideas would stand in greater contrast to science than does Creationism itself (there is no evidence of any creature ever deevolving or dying out and then evolving again) so it is just easier to look at Randland as a Creationist world. As I said before if there is evidence to prove me wrong please let me know, but as it stands I don't feel the need to believe that evolution occured in Randland any more than I believe that the One Power exists in the real world.

Its a fictional text. Our world is clearly myth for developmental backstory, whereas our myth is being used to develop character world.

 

But in terms of the fictionality RJ has always incorporated our world which includes our past... evolution included. I dont see how myths of Rand's age can survive that into the next turning.

 

Yes, but within the fictional text, remembrance seems to go both ways, to full turnings of the Wheel (I have myths of your Age, you have myths of mine).

 

I'm not sure evolution is included ... "memories" of men running with wolves like animals don't necessarily have to represent an earlier evolutionary state ... but you know I'm biased here.

 

But my main point is that we can't draw deductive links. We can't suggest that Rand will be layed to rest in Tar Valon because Arthur was layed to rest in Avalon. The nature of the stories are too dissimilar, and there are too many other mythologies interwoven as well.

 

I agree with that completely.

Rand and "the Dragon" (Lews Therin) are the same soul. How could one live on if the other dies? The most that could happen is that their personalities merge again with one coming out as dominant, but that isn't exactly death for the subordinate personality, either. The third age battle with the DO is Rand's fight, in any case, and Rand actually wants to survive it; LTT already had his chance, and he's eager to die (which amounts to his personality receding again, as it was for most of Rand's life).

 

Whenever asked if tWoT occurs in our past or future he simply answers by saying "both" and he never elaborates.

He has, actually. Since time in WoT is cyclical, Rand's time is in our past, but will also be in our future when the wheel turns again. Similarly, we are both in Rand's past and his future.

 

About the creationist slant in Randland, I was about to agree with you, because I'd always thought of it that way too, when I remembered: didn't the wonder girls see a large (dinosaur?) skeleton in one of the palaces in Falme? Or was it something mundane like an elephant? I can't even remember which book it's in, so if anyone has any idea what I'm talking about...:roll: Of course, that isn't complete evidence for humans in Randland evolving from single-celled organisms. It's possible the Creator had dinosaurs and humans co-existing. Do we have any other evidence either way?

It was in Tanchico, and yes, it probably was a dinosaur type creature.

 

In a world of massive planetary upheaval at relatively frequent intervals, mass extinctions could take place in a much smaller relative time scale ... yeah, this could easily go way off topic, so lets just say creation doesn't preculde dinosaurs.