suttree,

 

give it up. you're fighting a lost cause. When it comes to egwene people on dragonmount have pretty much made up their minds.

But the Aes Sedai aren't your typical organisation in which demotions happen all the time - once you are an Aes Sedai, you are always one except if you get stilled (the lawful stilling requires a trial and only very few Aes Sedai has ever been stilled after such a procedure) or burnt out. Shemerin was the only exception ever. On the other hand, new Aes Sedai are raised all the time and the Amyrlin is well within her rights to say one is ready for the Testing (though she usually leaves it to the Mistress of novices). The problem with the four she raised was that the testing ter'angreal and the Oath Rod were not avaiilable at the moment, but Egwene didn't intend to ignore that, as we saw in ToM when she innsisted that Nynaeve and Elayne went through the testing and swear the oaths. Sure, it wasn't strictly according to the laws and customs, but it was a far lesser violation than what Elaida did to Shemerin IMO. The reaction of Romanda and Sheriam was pretty mild.

And how many Aes Sedai acquired the title before without taking the test and swearing the Oaths (for nitpickers -when this procedure was in place)? I think the answer we know is zero. Egwene raised sisters not bound by the Oaths and not tested - their only legitimacy to using the title was Amyrlin's decree. The subsequent testing or swearing does not change the fact that she raised sisters and demanded they be given every right of Aes Sedai in contravention of the applicable procedure and custom. The reason they were raised was Egwene's political convenience and I'm not very much outraged by that. From a political point of view, it was a smart move. But it at least weakened the rule of law among the Aes Sedai (one of their reedeming features IMHO)and I see no reason not to call Egwene on that.

 

Your point is applicable only to the extent that we can say Egwnene's arbitrary decision was motivated by better reasons and served better goals than Elaida's but I have never questioned that. I think weakening the rule of law is bad irrespective of your reasons.

I don't know how can you say that the Amyrlin was well within her rights to say one was ready for a Testing when we talk about saying that one becomes Aes Sedai without any testing and any oaths, simply by virtue of Amyrlin's decree. You even admitted it was a violation. Lesser than Elaida's, but c'mon, Elaida was a caricature created only to make terrible mistakes and make Egwene look perfect in comparison. Being better than Elaida is no big accomplishment.

 

I don't even have to rebut, David Selig did a great job. It's very different for Aes Sedai. You need to look at it in context of the organization, not your own personal opinion. Plus, you've given an great example of something I'll talk about lower down. People who complain about change even when they go around talking about how change is required, BUT NOT THAT CHANGE!

 

And what else has Egwene done to manifest more power to herself? Since we've debunked this one. Nothing.

 

I don't really understand your argument here. When you argue for some changes to the organization, you should accept each and every change becasue it is, you know, change? I think the Aes Sedai should make some changes, but becoming an organization ruled not by law but by the whims of the Amyrlin is not one of the changes I have ever advocated.

 

I'm glad YOU think that way, but you are complaining about Egwene, and she wouldn't be much of a leader if she stood up and said "Well lets just shut the place down, we're a bunch of screw ups!". Honestly... no leader on earth would do that. They'd try to keep moral up while making slow changes to the culture of the institution.

Ok, but shouldn't she at least approach other people, not least Rand, in a less arrogant and superior manner? She is not his boss, she is not able to defeat the DO herself. It is her obligation to work with the DR and not some privilege that she might graciously grant him. Other than that, I agree with you.

 

And Rand has no reason to believe she's not one of those people who put him in the box and tortured Min and him. Egwene acts with the premise she should play dominant role in the Last Battle - it's plain wrong, because that's the reason for Dragon's existence.

But I agree that in this scene the fault lies on both sides.

I didn't say Rand had to accept, but you can't claim she won't work with people because they refuse. That doesn't mean she's not willing, it means THEY are not willing. Very different. I don't see you complaing about Rand's refusal to work with her. Oh but he has an excuse, she might have put him int he box. Yeah well Egwene had no reason not to believe Rand isn't bat shit crazy out of his mind! So either they're both horrible vile tyranical people as you'd say, or neither are.

I do not claim that. I simply do not like her attitude. I do not want her to submit or be humbled, but to respect other people and not treat every person as her subject. I would like her also to acknowledge that even though she is the important leader, she is not the leader of the whole humanity, she can not expect obedience from everybody and it is not ultimately her decision how to fight the Last Battle.

When you say

I don't see you complaing about Rand's refusal to work with her

Why do you think I said the fault lied at both sides?

Edited July 26, 201115 yr by PiotrekS

My point about change was quite awkwardly put, so I'll try again. But you were pretty close! So while we all say change needs to happen, we will never agree on what that changes requires. We think we agree when we say the word "change" but we don't. So yes, we agree change needs to happen, Egwene is recently elected, so instead of armchair QBing every decision, you give her a chance to screw shit up, which she has yet to do.

 

So Egwene has set a precedent that Accepted can be raised if the proper tools are not at hand. Maybe that's a good thing to have for wars and other campaigns, when out of the WT. You don't like this policy, but it could help with that change you want. Small tweaks can drastically change mindsets and culture. This could losen the strict Aes Sedai hierarchy and make the tower more cooperative.

 

As for the hypocrisy, lets simply break it down. For both actions proper custom was not followed, but for one, there is no proper custom to follow because it's just not done -- that's the difference.

Edited July 26, 201115 yr by Kael Pyralis

I do not claim that. I simply do not like her attitude. I do not want her to submit or be humbled, but to respect other people and not treat every person as her subject. I would like her also to acknowledge that even though she is the important leader, she is not the leader of the whole humanity, she can not expect obedience from everybody and it is not ultimately her decision how to fight the Last Battle.

 

^^ This, except for one thing: I don't think she is capable of losing this attitude, especially toward Rand and Nynaeve, unless she is humbled severely or unless she suffers an epic, and public, fail. Her desire for complete obedience from everyone she encounters seems to grow exponentially with each passing moment, and in most cases she gets the exact mindless obedience from people that she craves, so it is highly unlikely that she will suddenly see a problem with her attitude unless something drastic happens.

 

That's the funny part about all these rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth-toward-anyone-who-speaks-out-against-Egwene sycophants - if she would simply treat people with respect and not try to bully, control, or manipulate them into obeying her every order, I wouldn't really dislike her (I wouldn't like her, simply because of all the crap she has pulled in the past, but I would stop disliking her). But the more she behaves in an that obnoxiously arrogant, superior manner - the more she thinks about how to control and manipulate people in order to force or con them into serving her will - the more I loathe her. She's the Amyrlin, not the Creator, and while she is not stupid (I don't find her brilliant because I think she lacks real people skills, compassion, self-reflection, and doesn't really understand human emotion as most humans experience it) that doesn't mean she knows everything.

 

I've seen people use her age as an excuse, but that's no excuse. When I was 18, I thought I knew everything, too, but I quickly got disabused of that notion. Egwene has never been disabused of the belief that she is somehow "better" than everyone else and always knows the best course of action. And, I'm sure this is yet another place where I differ from the Egwene sycophants, she does NOT always know what's best, and her tendency to dismiss any opinions that conflict with her own does make her look a fool to me, especially when she so easily finds justification for doing so instead of considering, even for one moment (a trait that would make her a bit more human and a lot less arrogant), that the other person just might have a point or GASP, that Egwene herself could actually be wrong. For those old enough to remember the show Happy Days, Egwene reminds me of Fonzie where being wrong is concerned - I can picture it so easily, her being slapped in the face with the knowledge she was wrong and attempting to say it: "I was wr...wr..." *looks like she may puke* "Wr...wr..."

I would hate this person you describe too, whoever it is.

I would hate this person you describe too, whoever it is.

 

That's exactly how Egwene comes across to many of us. Competent? Yes. Accomplishments? Yes. Nice person? Not really.

I would hate this person you describe too, whoever it is.

 

That's exactly how Egwene comes across to many of us. Competent? Yes. Accomplishments? Yes. Nice person? Not really.

 

No, you say she's as bad as Elaida, claim she's actively trying to usurp the Dragon, is a total screw up because she happens to not agree with Rand one time, she's a tyrant trying to centralize all th WT power to herself, she expects everyone to bow and scrape to her (NO idea where that one came from), and there's likely some other hyperbole I missed.

 

Not once has some said "Well she gets stuff done, but I wouldn't want to have a beer with her". No one has suggested that she might be doing what she must, there is no empathy because they expect her to rise above, when in reality the Hall would instantly tear her down. Siuan knew it, so did Tamra Ospenya. Hopefully Egwene will be strong enough to change things, but it cannot be done overnight. The practice of foreign exchange is a brilliant plan for giving the new Aes Sedai some worldlyness.

 

Oh and the other grating argument from the hate side is, "she was written to be unlikeable". As if your interpretation is obviously the correct one and others are swimming against the tide. She was written to be Egwene. I hate pansy's and "unlikely" heroes, I don't assume perrin was written to be unlikeable.

 

I'm not arguing you should like her. I am arguing that the hyperbole and slander is between exaggerated and outlandish.

Edited July 26, 201115 yr by Kael Pyralis

That's the funny part about all these rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth-toward-anyone-who-speaks-out-against-Egwene sycophants -

 

Hhmmm "rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth..."? now whose posts does that make me think of? Pot meet kettle.

 

if she would simply treat people with respect and not try to bully, control, or manipulate them into obeying her every order

 

It doesn't bother you with Nynaeve though?

 

and in most cases she gets the exact mindless obedience from people that she craves,

 

I often wonder did people just skip KoD, TGS and the whole being "captured" storyline?

Edited July 26, 201115 yr by Suttree

I would hate this person you describe too, whoever it is.

 

That's exactly how Egwene comes across to many of us. Competent? Yes. Accomplishments? Yes. Nice person? Not really.

 

No, you say she's as bad as Elaida, claim she's actively trying to usurp the Dragon, is a total screw up because she happens to not agree with Rand one time, she's a tyrant trying to centralize all th WT power to herself, she expects everyone to bow and scrape to her (NO idea where that one came from), and there's likely some other hyperbole I missed.

 

Not once has some said "Well she gets stuff done, but I wouldn't want to have a beer with her". No one has suggested that she might be doing what she must, there is no empathy because they expect her to rise above, when in reality the Hall would instantly tear her down. Siuan knew it, so did Tamra Ospenya. Hopefully Egwene will be strong enough to change things, but it cannot be done overnight. The practice of foreign exchange is a brilliant plan for giving the new Aes Sedai some worldlyness.

 

Oh and the other grating argument from the hate side is, "she was written to be unlikeable". As if your interpretation is obviously the correct one and others are swimming against the tide. She was written to be Egwene. I hate pansy's and "unlikely" heroes, I don't assume perrin was written to be unlikeable.

 

I'm not arguing you should like her. I am arguing that the hyperbole and slander is between exaggerated and outlandish.

 

Not everyone who dislikes her talks about her in such a hyperbolic way. In fact, a lot of that I feel is the pro-Egwene people ascribing those kinds of statements to anyone who happens to view Egwene with dislike. Not everyone who doesn't like her is a rabid, foaming at the mouth crazy. Plenty of people have posted succinct, reasonable reasons for disliking the character.

 

I find the blind "like" and defense of Egwene without any acknowledgement of her faults to be just as ridiculous and annoying. Acknowledging that she has faults/mistakes or that at least others have reasonably interpreted things that way seems fair. Doesn't mean you can't like her. I'm a fan of both Rand and Mat and I could provide a long list of things that they've each done that I didn't like or mistakes that they have made.

It doesn't bother you with Nynaeve though?

 

Speaking for myself, it did bother me with Nynaeve early in the series, but it ceased to do so in the later books.

 

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

And finally, her chapters are comedy gold due to the amount of irony.

The humor element is important. Because Jordan wasn't in love with Nynaeve in quite the same way he was in love with Egwene, he could play her blind spots for laughs instead of pretending that they're not blind spots. There's a Nynaeve POVsomewhere about how men always resort to violence (I think she refers to it as, "thinking with their shoulders") and how that frustrated her to the point she felt the need to beat them with a stick.

 

Egwene is never given moments like that.

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

 

heh, especially when nynaeve herself had trouble in seeing egwene for what she was. An amyrlin and not her friend/inn keeper's daughter anymore in TOM.

And what else has Egwene done to manifest more power to herself?

A lot of people seem to have forgotten about this (probably because it was mentioned in CoT and everyone snored through that book ), but after blackmailing Myrelle and Nisao into swearing fealty, Egwene forced Sheriam, Movrin, Anaiya, Carlinya, and Beonin to do the same. Only Theodrin and Faolain did it voluntarily. Egwene had a total of nine sworn Aes Sedai, which is incidentally the same number as the sisters that swore to Rand at Dumai's Wells.

 

However, when Egwene learned of Rand's sworn Aes Sedai, she was furious and complained that he was "chaining Aes Sedai like damane," even suspecting him of having used Compulsion. She also publicly reproached Elaida in TGS for considering a fourth oath of obedience to the Amyrlin, as well as the Black Ajah hunters for using oaths of obedience as a tool in their investigation.

 

From Egwene's POVs in TGS, you would never have suspected that she herself had forced Aes Sedai to swear fealty; nowhere does she spare a thought for her own sworn sisters when she condemns others for doing the same.

 

The false Amyrlin just turned back to her soup, smiling to herself, no doubt contemplating a fourth oath to demand obedience. Couldn't she see how that would undermine the Tower itself? It would transform the Amyrlin from a leader to a despot! Egwene's rage boiled within her, steaming like the soup in her hands.

To the Black Ajah hunters:

 

"This is why an oath of obedience is a terrible idea," Egwene said. "No woman should have this much power over another. What you have done to these others is only one step shy of Compulsion."

So I have to wonder whether RJ/Brandon refrained from mentioning them to make Egwene seem more heroic in TGS, or actually meant for her to come off as a hypocrite. If it's the former then I think it adds to the argument that Egwene is a poorly written character. Her previous actions were completely ignored to make her struggle against Elaida seem like Cinderella vs the Wicked Witch.

Hhmmm "rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth..."? now whose posts does that make me think of? Pot meet kettle.

 

I learned a long time ago that you can either fight fire with fire or you can get burned to a crisp. Given that anyone who dislikes Egwene or points out any of her personality flaws is immediately labeled (by Egwene fans) as "sexist", "misogynistic" (funny since I'm female), "Rand worshiper", or a number of other rude terms that ignore any logic (like perhaps some people just think the character is an unlikable bitch, perhaps?) and jump right into a rabid defense of the character because said defenders behave like they think Egwene poops roses and sunshine, I see no reason to be genteel when I'm describing my feelings for the character. In the past, I attempted to have logical discussions with Egwene fans and quickly found out that it is completely impossible to do so. So now, I don't bother. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, so it is said...

 

It doesn't bother you with Nynaeve though?

 

At times, yes it bothered me (the way she behaved toward the boys, in particular, was awful), but Nynaeve is an entirely different "person", with different motivations. That is one reason she was able to overcome a lot of her unbecoming behavior, such as the same antagonistic, superior attitude toward men that all of the other WoT women have. If you're asking if I had a problem with her treatment of Egwene, though, the answer is no. Why? Because she never treated Egwene with the contemptuous cruelty and obnoxious arrogance that Egwene directs at her. I never saw this "horrible" treatment Egwene claimed, especially considering that it was Nynaeve who voluntarily told Egwene not to call her Wisdom anymore and said straight out that they were basically on the same level once they got to the White Tower.

 

The main quality of Nynaeve's that causes me to accept her faults and all yet still like her is the fact that she is an extremely compassionate person. When she cares for someone, she's like a mama grizzly bear - she will go after an enemy without thinking about it if they threaten someone she loves. That is what drives her more than anything else, and I can respect that. She will risk humiliation, death, and everything in between in order to help those she cares for and she won't grumble once about doing it (well, not more than once!) and, more importantly, she doesn't expect anything in return. That's probably good for her, too, because likely all she'll get for her efforts is pain and grief (save for Rand, who now truly appreciates her friendship and concern). And that brings me to another reason why it was easier for me to overlook her prickly and bossy personality (I say "was" because she displays neither trait now)...

 

Nynaeve has gotten nothing but a ration of crap and loathing for how she behaved. No one, including Egwene, liked her at all and mainly just "tolerated" her. Elayne was probably the first person she made friends with who actually recognized what was underneath Nynaeve's prickly exterior and actually seems to give a damn about her. Had it been Nynaeve to terrorize Egwene in TAR, I've no doubt Egwene would've thrown a bowl at her head and never have forgiven her for it. And it would have been deserved. But when Egwene does it, Nynaeve doesn't call her on it. She attacks the only reasonable Whitecloaks in the series and Verin doesn't smack her down for it. And therein lies another of my problems with the character - no one ever calls Egwene on ANYTHING.

 

Nope, everything she does is great. The only thing she actually pays for is lying to the Wise Ones, and that whole ordeal was ludicrous. She got a spanking for lying to them and disobeying them, which for someone who values knowledge and power more than anything in the world was a small price to pay for getting every scrap of info she could bleed from them. Had they known sooner, they would've refused to teach her, which is what should have happened. Instead, they beat her ass with a belt for a bit and decide she's perfect. And that is a constant with the character. Everyone loves her. Everyone thinks she's great and perfect and brilliant and beautiful. She's basically Bella out of freaking Twilight. Can we say Mary Sue?? She treats Nynaeve and Rand like crap and they are still her friends. She stomps all over the Hall to get her way and they stupidly follow along and think how brilliant she is. She can do no wrong in anyone's eyes in the books. Every other character gets smacked down by someone, at some time, and is disliked (or, in Nyn and Rand's case, outright hated with a passion) but not Egwene. Nope. She's perfect! It's like RJ and BS thought that if the other characters said it enough, the readers would buy it. Doesn't work that way with me. Sorry.

 

So long answer short, no, it didn't bother me that much when Nynaeve was being bossy and rude. First, because she paid the price for the behavior. Second, because her "bossiness" didn't involve her demanding blind obedience from her friends. And finally, because Nynaeve being Nynaeve (a soft hearted person with a prickly surface exterior) I knew she would grow out of it. And that is exactly what happened. In fact, it happened so well that I wish she'd get a bit of her prickliness back, at least where certain people (Egwene *cough* Cadsuane) are concerned.

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

 

heh, especially when nynaeve herself had trouble in seeing egwene for what she was. An amyrlin and not her friend/inn keeper's daughter anymore in TOM.

 

 

Sorry, I call bullshit on this one and I'm sick of seeing people make this ridiculous claim. As soon as Egwene was raised as Amyrlin, Nynaeve curtsied and called her Mother. It was EGWENE who told both Nynaeve and Elayne to stop it and to call her Egwene in private. Nynaeve has been NOTHING but respectful toward Egwene since she became Amyrlin. Nynaeve is the one who gave her Siuan and Leane on a platter because she knew what was going on with those two. Respect, however, was not good enough for Egwene. She wanted Nyn to grovel and obey blindly.

Pretty much "dislike" until the last few books, but I think RJ just didn't characterize her (and MOST others) very well — he didn't make them persons, but personifications.

 

But I've always thought RJ was better at plotting amazing stories than at developing characters, so I'm not married to needing to like these characters; they're mostly either personifications of an ideal, or plot devices. Like Egwene is the Conservative during the Renaissance; Rand is the Renaissance; Mat, the Fool; Perrin, the Earth; etc. And certain ideals appeal more than others in this particular story (end of the world), but they're all required to weave the story.

 

I wish I could see more difference between most of the female channelers besides nurture (Aes Sedai vs 'wilder') and alignment (Good vs Bad). Maybe that's why I thought Verin was the most interesting Aes Sedai (she was outside most stereotypes), but OTOH she represented Scientific Method maybe (search for knowledge at whatever cost).

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

 

heh, especially when nynaeve herself had trouble in seeing egwene for what she was. An amyrlin and not her friend/inn keeper's daughter anymore in TOM.

 

 

Sorry, I call bullshit on this one and I'm sick of seeing people make this ridiculous claim. As soon as Egwene was raised as Amyrlin, Nynaeve curtsied and called her Mother. It was EGWENE who told both Nynaeve and Elayne to stop it and to call her Egwene in private. Nynaeve has been NOTHING but respectful toward Egwene since she became Amyrlin. Nynaeve is the one who gave her Siuan and Leane on a platter because she knew what was going on with those two. Respect, however, was not good enough for Egwene. She wanted Nyn to grovel and obey blindly.

 

 

is that why nynaeve was continuing to ignore egwene's orders to return to WT?

 

I think you need to read TOM once more. here i will point you to the right direction. chapter 14.

 

that's twice now where i had to point a chapter to a hater. Maybe these guys are not even reading the books properly. such a shame that an alleged troll knows more about the series than them

Edited July 26, 201115 yr by Elan Tedronai

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

 

heh, especially when nynaeve herself had trouble in seeing egwene for what she was. An amyrlin and not her friend/inn keeper's daughter anymore in TOM.

 

 

Sorry, I call bullshit on this one and I'm sick of seeing people make this ridiculous claim. As soon as Egwene was raised as Amyrlin, Nynaeve curtsied and called her Mother. It was EGWENE who told both Nynaeve and Elayne to stop it and to call her Egwene in private. Nynaeve has been NOTHING but respectful toward Egwene since she became Amyrlin. Nynaeve is the one who gave her Siuan and Leane on a platter because she knew what was going on with those two. Respect, however, was not good enough for Egwene. She wanted Nyn to grovel and obey blindly.

 

So earlier you used Nyn telling Egwene to stop calling her Wisdom as evidence of why Nyn is a better person. Then you twist Egwene telling Nyn not to call her Mother in private around into being Egwene's cruelty somehow. Even though Nynaeve actually WASN'T wisdom anymore, while Egwene actually _IS_ nynaeve's mother. You're off you're rocker.

 

Also when Nyn did tell Egwene not to call her mother, Egwene is concerned. It's in her PoV and she complains in her head about why Lan and Her just don't hook up since they obviously love each other. I'm sure you'll twist that around into Egwene being selfish too. Oh and you also said Egwene didn't like Nynaeve. Lots of people complain about strict parents but still love them. Elayne doesn't see Nyn as a mother figure, that's the difference, that doesn't mean there is more or less love.

 

And of course she wants to be Empress of the world, but not have her friends call her Mother. When she starts referring to Gawyn as "Toy" maybe I'll come around to that one.

I would hate this person you describe too, whoever it is.

 

That's exactly how Egwene comes across to many of us. Competent? Yes. Accomplishments? Yes. Nice person? Not really.

 

No, you say she's as bad as Elaida, claim she's actively trying to usurp the Dragon, is a total screw up because she happens to not agree with Rand one time, she's a tyrant trying to centralize all th WT power to herself, she expects everyone to bow and scrape to her (NO idea where that one came from), and there's likely some other hyperbole I missed.

 

Not once has some said "Well she gets stuff done, but I wouldn't want to have a beer with her". No one has suggested that she might be doing what she must, there is no empathy because they expect her to rise above, when in reality the Hall would instantly tear her down. Siuan knew it, so did Tamra Ospenya. Hopefully Egwene will be strong enough to change things, but it cannot be done overnight. The practice of foreign exchange is a brilliant plan for giving the new Aes Sedai some worldlyness.

 

Oh and the other grating argument from the hate side is, "she was written to be unlikeable". As if your interpretation is obviously the correct one and others are swimming against the tide. She was written to be Egwene. I hate pansy's and "unlikely" heroes, I don't assume perrin was written to be unlikeable.

 

I'm not arguing you should like her. I am arguing that the hyperbole and slander is between exaggerated and outlandish.

 

Not everyone who dislikes her talks about her in such a hyperbolic way. In fact, a lot of that I feel is the pro-Egwene people ascribing those kinds of statements to anyone who happens to view Egwene with dislike. Not everyone who doesn't like her is a rabid, foaming at the mouth crazy. Plenty of people have posted succinct, reasonable reasons for disliking the character.

 

I find the blind "like" and defense of Egwene without any acknowledgement of her faults to be just as ridiculous and annoying. Acknowledging that she has faults/mistakes or that at least others have reasonably interpreted things that way seems fair. Doesn't mean you can't like her. I'm a fan of both Rand and Mat and I could provide a long list of things that they've each done that I didn't like or mistakes that they have made.

 

Missed this earlier.

 

Well I can only assume you agree with the hyperbole when you reply to defend it. Also, I have admitted that she is a calculating person. I agree she's not really hard-done by. I agree she lucked into being Amyrlin. I agree she was unbelievably annoying through the start of the series, assuming she knew everything, running off on her own to do everything. I can even see where some might find her bluntness with Rand off putting. I consider it necessary given her position, but it certainly doesn't make her a lovable doll.

 

But I think that's very consistent with her character. Her running off to turn the chain to heartstone and getting captured seemed dumb. But her running off to defend the WT, while barely able to channel, against a rather large seanchan air attack is quite understandable given the brashness we know her for. Annoying A-Type personalities are often quite successful, because failure doesn't scratch their psyche, they'll turn it into something else, or just keep going.

 

But none of that equates to anything close to what liltempest has argued.

 

Again, you don't have to like her, I do think she has earned some respect for surviving in the shark pit. Yes politics is dirty, but you can play the game and still have the best of intentions in the long term.

Edited July 27, 201115 yr by Kael Pyralis

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

 

heh, especially when nynaeve herself had trouble in seeing egwene for what she was. An amyrlin and not her friend/inn keeper's daughter anymore in TOM.

 

 

Sorry, I call bullshit on this one and I'm sick of seeing people make this ridiculous claim. As soon as Egwene was raised as Amyrlin, Nynaeve curtsied and called her Mother. It was EGWENE who told both Nynaeve and Elayne to stop it and to call her Egwene in private. Nynaeve has been NOTHING but respectful toward Egwene since she became Amyrlin. Nynaeve is the one who gave her Siuan and Leane on a platter because she knew what was going on with those two. Respect, however, was not good enough for Egwene. She wanted Nyn to grovel and obey blindly.

 

So earlier you used Nyn telling Egwene to stop calling her Wisdom as evidence of why Nyn is a better person. Then you twist Egwene telling Nyn not to call her Mother in private around into being Egwene's cruelty somehow. Even though Nynaeve actually WASN'T wisdom anymore, while Egwene actually _IS_ nynaeve's mother. You're off you're rocker.

 

Also when Nyn did tell Egwene not to call her mother, Egwene is concerned. It's in her PoV and she complains in her head about why Lan and Her just don't hook up since they obviously love each other. I'm sure you'll twist that around into Egwene being selfish too. Oh and you also said Egwene didn't like Nynaeve. Lots of people complain about strict parents but still love them. Elayne doesn't see Nyn as a mother figure, that's the difference, that doesn't mean there is more or less love.

 

And of course she wants to be Empress of the world, but not have her friends call her Mother. When she starts referring to Gawyn as "Toy" maybe I'll come around to that one.

 

I'm pretty sure liltempest wasn't saying what you seem to think (forgive me if I'm wrong). I think the point was that Nynaeve HAD called Egwene "Mother" at first, and only stopped on Egwene's insistence- not that this was cruel from Egwene, but that Nynaeve DID show Amyrlin- Egwene respect. You could argue that in the later books, she stopped to an extent, as she stays away from the WT, but I would hardly argue that it was the same level as chucking a bowl at her head and throwing a tantrum :P

 

And for Nynaeve's comment, perhaps it relates to the fact that often Nynaeve's "terrible" treatment of Egwene is the reason behind Egwene being a sulky bitch for the whole of TDR, and, of course, pretty much all of her interactions with Nyn in TFoH, despite the fact that all we ever see of this "terrible treatment" is Nynaeve taking control in TDR (and even Egwene admits that most of her suggestions and plans make sense), and being a bit bossy, generally in the earlier books. NYNAEVE is the one to tell Egwene not to call her Wisdom and that they are equals now, in TGH, and we see her shift from seeing Egwene as an "equal", but one she still feels protective towards, and yes, probably more knowledgeable than, to someone who seems to be railing against her for no reason, to a full equal and a friend- because yes, its going to take time for Nynaeve to see someone who has been her pupil and assistant for years as a full grown woman- bear in mind, had they remained in Emond's Field, Egwene would either have moved away, or had to wait until Nynaeve died to become Wisdom- they wouldn't have been "two equals in the same place". But we essentially see Egwene show Nynaeve very minimal respect when she's not exclaiming over Nyn's weaves, and then spend TFoH trying to make Nynaeve cower and obey her. Honestly, I wouldn't dislike Egwene half as much as I do if she and Nynaeve had simply never spoken in the series.

 

And I've gone off on a rant again, so I'll leave it at that. But personally, if I were Egwene, I'd be thankful that Nynaeve still listened to me at all after TFoH, never mind agreed to come back to the WT, submit to testing and kneeling before me, whatever my position. But there we go.

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

I do see the parallels. I think I even suggested in this or another thread that I disliked Egwene less after she gained power. Certainly, it becomes clear that she's a ... necessary evil (tongue in cheek here) ... in a way.

 

The difference, in my opinion, is that Egwene was always like that. Her personality didn't suddenly change once she came to power. If I remember correctly, Siuan states something to this effect ("They netted themselves a silverpike when they thought they had a flounder" or some such) -- she isn't a young girl who has to make herself harder to maintain her authority, she's already that person, for the most part, but the Salidar Aes Sedai were too blind to see it.

Edited July 27, 201115 yr by Hybrid

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

 

heh, especially when nynaeve herself had trouble in seeing egwene for what she was. An amyrlin and not her friend/inn keeper's daughter anymore in TOM.

 

 

Sorry, I call bullshit on this one and I'm sick of seeing people make this ridiculous claim. As soon as Egwene was raised as Amyrlin, Nynaeve curtsied and called her Mother. It was EGWENE who told both Nynaeve and Elayne to stop it and to call her Egwene in private. Nynaeve has been NOTHING but respectful toward Egwene since she became Amyrlin. Nynaeve is the one who gave her Siuan and Leane on a platter because she knew what was going on with those two. Respect, however, was not good enough for Egwene. She wanted Nyn to grovel and obey blindly.

 

So earlier you used Nyn telling Egwene to stop calling her Wisdom as evidence of why Nyn is a better person. Then you twist Egwene telling Nyn not to call her Mother in private around into being Egwene's cruelty somehow. Even though Nynaeve actually WASN'T wisdom anymore, while Egwene actually _IS_ nynaeve's mother. You're off you're rocker.

 

Also when Nyn did tell Egwene not to call her mother, Egwene is concerned. It's in her PoV and she complains in her head about why Lan and Her just don't hook up since they obviously love each other. I'm sure you'll twist that around into Egwene being selfish too. Oh and you also said Egwene didn't like Nynaeve. Lots of people complain about strict parents but still love them. Elayne doesn't see Nyn as a mother figure, that's the difference, that doesn't mean there is more or less love.

 

And of course she wants to be Empress of the world, but not have her friends call her Mother. When she starts referring to Gawyn as "Toy" maybe I'll come around to that one.

 

I'm pretty sure liltempest wasn't saying what you seem to think (forgive me if I'm wrong). I think the point was that Nynaeve HAD called Egwene "Mother" at first, and only stopped on Egwene's insistence- not that this was cruel from Egwene, but that Nynaeve DID show Amyrlin- Egwene respect. You could argue that in the later books, she stopped to an extent, as she stays away from the WT, but I would hardly argue that it was the same level as chucking a bowl at her head and throwing a tantrum :P

 

And for Nynaeve's comment, perhaps it relates to the fact that often Nynaeve's "terrible" treatment of Egwene is the reason behind Egwene being a sulky bitch for the whole of TDR, and, of course, pretty much all of her interactions with Nyn in TFoH, despite the fact that all we ever see of this "terrible treatment" is Nynaeve taking control in TDR (and even Egwene admits that most of her suggestions and plans make sense), and being a bit bossy, generally in the earlier books. NYNAEVE is the one to tell Egwene not to call her Wisdom and that they are equals now, in TGH, and we see her shift from seeing Egwene as an "equal", but one she still feels protective towards, and yes, probably more knowledgeable than, to someone who seems to be railing against her for no reason, to a full equal and a friend- because yes, its going to take time for Nynaeve to see someone who has been her pupil and assistant for years as a full grown woman- bear in mind, had they remained in Emond's Field, Egwene would either have moved away, or had to wait until Nynaeve died to become Wisdom- they wouldn't have been "two equals in the same place". But we essentially see Egwene show Nynaeve very minimal respect when she's not exclaiming over Nyn's weaves, and then spend TFoH trying to make Nynaeve cower and obey her. Honestly, I wouldn't dislike Egwene half as much as I do if she and Nynaeve had simply never spoken in the series.

 

And I've gone off on a rant again, so I'll leave it at that. But personally, if I were Egwene, I'd be thankful that Nynaeve still listened to me at all after TFoH, never mind agreed to come back to the WT, submit to testing and kneeling before me, whatever my position. But there we go.

 

You aren't wrong at all. You nailed exactly what I was saying. I'm not sure from which orifice Kael (or whoever it was) pulled her "interpretation" of what I said, and the entire response screamed "foaming at the mouth" to me, which is why I didn't bother responding to it (I saw nowhere in my response where I said Egwene called Nyn "mother"). So thank you for clarifying. And kudos...you clearly have more patience for dealing with unreasonable and rabid nutjobs than I do.

I like Nynaeve infinitely more than Egwene, but in all fairness Egwene had a good reason to be angry at Nynaeve and to think she's not getting all the respect required of her position as Amyrlin. Nynaeve left Caemlyn in the middle of WH against Egwene's orders, and didn't communicate with Egwene, even intentionally avoiding her attempts for contacts at times, for months despite having all kinds of extremely important news to share - the Cleansing, Semirhage's capture, etc.

Nynaeve does have a justification for her actions. She has one of the most important positions in the Two Rivers, but she isn't always respected due to her age. Thus, her behavior isn't too hard to sympathize with. She's trying to make the Cenn Buies think of her as the Wisdom first and foremost, as opposed to the young woman who needs to be married off or some such.

 

In addition, her character grows to accept that because she no longer needs to fill those shoes, she no longer needs to act that way. She doesn't completely change, but she gains some measure of humility.

 

Curious if you don't see parallels between that and Egwene being a young Amrylin? If anything there is more pressure than being wisdom in how she needs to carry herself and demand respect around the WT.

 

I do see the parallels. I think I even suggested in this or another thread that I disliked Egwene less after she gained power. Certainly, it becomes clear that she's a ... necessary evil (tongue in cheek here) ... in a way.

 

The difference, in my opinion, is that Egwene was always like that. Her personality didn't suddenly change once she came to power. If I remember correctly, Siuan states something to this effect ("They netted themselves a silverpike when they thought they had a flounder" or some such) -- she isn't a young girl who has to make herself harder to maintain her authority, she's already that person, for the most part, but the Salidar Aes Sedai were too blind to see it.

 

I agree that she was already hard. Egwene has always been a hard girl, and there have been numerous scenes that drove that fact home with me. I remember one particular scene that just kind of left me aghast as to how heartless she can seem at times, where Elayne is lamenting the suffering the people they're looking at are having to go through and Egwene just doesn't give a crap and is surprised that Elayne gives a crap. She is not a nice person, as many non-Egwene fans have repeatedly pointed out.

 

As for disliking her less after she gained power, I had the opposite reaction. While I respected the fact that she would not allow the Salidar group to turn her into a puppet, I think she got positive reinforcement for very negative behavior here. Ignoring the fact the Mary Suness of Egwene - like the fact that every character seems to lose a hundred IQ points when in her presence and that characters we're supposed to see as strong suddenly become wussified because Egwene glares at them - and just looking at how she handled the situation, I could have respected her for several...I won't call them accomplishments because they were basically handed to her by the author in an unbelievable way...but I could have respected the end results if Egwene's own thoughts and/or comments had not ruined it for me.

 

For example, blackmailing Myrelle and Nisao and forcing them to swear fealty to her, then doing the same to Sheriam and the rest, was a slick political move. It was a crappy move, but it was slick. Left at that, I could have laughed at the obnoxious Aes Sedai and given Egwene a nod for being politically adept enough to manage it (despite the fact that I loathe politicians and political games and find typical politicians beyond distasteful). Where she lost me, and where I went from thinking it was worthy of respect (if for no other reason than she managed to beat them at their own game) was when, first, she wanted Rand punished for daring to allow sisters to swear fealty to him and, worse, went as far as accusing him of using Compulsion to force them to do so.

 

That reaction told me several things about Egwene as a person: first, she thinks that she should be able to break rules/customs if she chooses but expects others to never attempt the same no matter the circumstances; second, she always thinks the worst of her friends, since she never thought ONCE that Rand had been pressured by Aes Sedai from the beginning and that, perhaps like was done to her, they pushed him too far or did something unforgivable to him and that he had FELT forced to put a stop to it by tricking them (as she did) into swearing fealty or that, since she herself had seen his ta'veren effect, he had somehow managed to use it to make them swear to him in order to keep them from tying puppet strings to him (as was being done to her but she avoided through forcing/blackmailing sisters to swear to her); third, she completely lacks the ability to see just how hypocritical she is, because she doesn't even BOTHER to consider how inappropriate her own actions were and simply thinks what she did is fine while condemning Rand for doing the exact same thing. My opinion on this matter was confirmed and intensified when I saw Egwene's reaction to Elaida's plan to force all sisters to swear an oath of obedience to the Amyrlin: again, she did not see even the slightest similarity between Elaida's plans and what she did (even if it was thinking that what she did was on a much smaller scale and to avoid political suicide!) and condemned Elaida without pause for her plans. It's clear that Egwene thinks she should be able to use her power to do as she pleases, but everyone else should be limited no matter their situation. And this is but one example of how Egwene has "taken" to the power she has, which is why I have grown to dislike her more, rather than less, once she came to power. That said...

 

Despite the fact that I find her personality loathsome, and the fact that I think her "friends" should have nothing to do with her and never go out of their way to help her after the way she has treated them, I would have respected the way she led the Tower novices against the Seanchan if it had not been written so poorly and in such a heavy-handed manner. Again, everyone else was made to look worse in order for her to look awesome and perfect. The sad part is that it easily could have been remedied. Had, say, half the Tower Aes Sedai been out of the Tower (or at least the Sitters/Ajah Heads/higher up sisters, perhaps at Elayne's coronation??), and Egwene had seen a leaderless Tower under attack (the effect worsened by the divide among the Ajahs, with them refusing to work together at all) and seized control in the manner she did, it would have been awesome. Giving her the opportunity to use the novices and Accepted as she did, while forcing the rest of the Aes Sedai - through her behavior, rather than her demands that two-hundred year old sisters call her "Mother" for the rest of the battle - to work together once they saw how effective she was, would have made sense. It would have also seemed less...unbelievable and ridiculous. Then the Ajah Heads could have returned, perhaps in the middle of the battle, or even after (where they would've been quickly informed as to Egwene's outstanding performance or, even better, seen for themselves what she had inspired and was leading through action rather than "obey me!!!" like Elaida has consistently demanded) and realized that she was, indeed, the type of leader they needed. It would have also served to show, rather than tell us, how different Egwene is from Elaida. Siuan said it long ago, that a leader leads rather than pushes or pulls. All Egwene has done is push and pull, just like Elaida. The Seanchan raid could have been the thing to show her in a different light, that even in an Accepted dress - even while being called "child" rather than "Mother" - Egwene could lead the Tower AS through her actions instead of by decree or bullying. It would have also served to show Egwene herself that she doesn't need people bowing and scraping to her constantly, and she doesn't have to have blind obedience from her "subjects" in order to lead them. If she does what's right, and does it well, they will follow. Sadly, it's not a lesson she has, or ever will, learn.