What worries me about this is what happened at Egwene's testing, when the testing ter'angreal apparently resonated with her dream ring, with potentially catastrophic effects (TDR22).

 

There wasn't a problem with the Bowl t'a, but every t'a seems to be different.

 

Edited: Actually, of course, there was; saidin and saidar were both misbehaving after its use (TPoD24).

 

Re Tuon: It would certainly solve a great many problems if Tuon were indeed number three - but it would probably take a paddling from Mat to persuade her to do it..

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by FarShainMael

Yes, the Tuon version is a very interesting one... it's just unbearable a little bit since I don't like Seanchan at all and I dislike the thought of Tuon helping to save the world even more: "Ok now, I'm gonna deal with that- may I live forever- and you just go spill some blood upon the rock."

A little while ago I read some discussions about Mierin(Lanfear) turning back to the Light then helping Rand seal the Bore with her Knowledge of the Bore(we know she was * with researching and drilling the Bore)

 

Now if you consider the Dark prophesy from book 2 tGH,

Daughter of the Night,1 she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover2 she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

We can get a possibility that maybe she was "fighting the ancient war against the shadow" but is going double agent. Even if she has "selfish" reasons.

 

Is it a stretch to "guess" she might be the 3rd in the circle? (considering the epilogue in the ToM is not a trap that is)

What worries me about this is what happened at Egwene's testing, when the testing ter'angreal apparently resonated with her dream ring, with potentially catastrophic effects (TDR22).

 

There wasn't a problem with the Bowl t'a, but every t'a seems to be different.

 

Edited: Actually, of course, there was; saidin and saidar were both misbehaving after its use (TPoD24)

There seems to be a common thread there, both times there was a ter'angreal involved. This time it will be a sa'angreal and an angreal... maybe ter'angreal are the trouble makers...?

 

Re Tuon: It would certainly solve a great many problems if Tuon were indeed number three - but it would probably take a paddling from Mat to persuade her to do it..

A great mental image that...

Mat plucking Tuon off the her throne, seating himself on it, laying her across his lap and in front of the entire Seanchan court, spanking her until she agrees to join the Callandor circle

 

"Ok now, I'm gonna deal with that- may I live forever- and you just go spill some blood upon the rock."

Hilarious!!! Well said!

 

A little while ago I read some discussions about Mierin(Lanfear) turning back to the Light then helping Rand seal the Bore with her Knowledge of the Bore(we know she was * with researching and drilling the Bore)

 

Now if you consider the Dark prophesy from book 2 tGH,

Daughter of the Night,1 she walks again.The ancient war, she yet fights.Her new lover2 she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

 

We can get a possibility that maybe she was "fighting the ancient war against the shadow" but is going double agent. Even if she has "selfish" reasons.

 

Is it a stretch to "guess" she might be the 3rd in the circle? (considering the epilogue in the ToM is not a trap that is)

I don't quite know what to think about Lanfear turning back to the Light. It would be a good twist but I'm not sure how well she'd go dealing with Rand and his tribe of lovers.

 

There's a possibility that Rand wouldn't need her knowledge anyway, considering his VoG merge with LTT. Though I suppose she was locked in the DO's prison for over three thousand years so she may have picked up an intersting tid-bit or two.

 

That prophecy still troubles me though. I barely have a coherent thought on it.

 

I personally don't think she'll be no3, but I also don't believe it's a stretch to think that she will be. There are so many possibilities and nothing solid to elevate two of them over the others.

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by Louii

Yep, could be those pesky ter'angreals...

 

A great mental image that...

Mat plucking Tuon off the her throne, seating himself on it, laying her across his lap and in front of the entire Seanchan court, spanking her until she agrees to join the Callandor circle

 

:laugh:

 

With Cadsuane watching and laughing herself sick remembering Semi..

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by FarShainMael

I really like the Tuon argument.

 

Would help bring about binding the 9 moons (into a pact to help) + satisfy that he Rand must kneel before her (he submits via the circle)

Maybe Matt can pull some weight as prince of ravens?

And I do like tuon (hate her empress name) so I want her to start channeling and accept it :)

 

Ah time for a re-read I think... this board always makes me start again. Havent looked here in months.

Yep, could be those pesky ter'angreals...

 

A great mental image that...

Mat plucking Tuon off the her throne, seating himself on it, laying her across his lap and in front of the entire Seanchan court, spanking her until she agrees to join the Callandor circle

 

:laugh:

 

With Cadsuane watching and laughing herself sick remembering Semi..

 

...and then we'd probably get a

 

"Phaw!! Another boy that needs to learn some manners."

 

 

I really like the Tuon argument.

 

Would help bring about binding the 9 moons (into a pact to help) + satisfy that he Rand must kneel before her (he submits via the circle)

Maybe Matt can pull some weight as prince of ravens?

And I do like tuon (hate her empress name) so I want her to start channeling and accept it :)

 

Ah time for a re-read I think... this board always makes me start again. Havent looked here in months.

 

Strangely enough, I like her too. Although I'm not quite sure why, she's just a really good character I think.

 

I think I'm going to have to start another re-read too. I just finished one, then joined DM and now have this insatiable urge to go again!

Well, gotta do something to fill in those long months..

Indeed, all this waiting (not to mention all the the brain straining theorizing) is no bloody good for a person!

Tuon.

 

I don't think Tuon would fit, there are too many things to have to do before she could even help:

1. convince her to actively channel

2. Open up her ability enough and train her so that she can open up to a circle and hold the source.

3. Give her time to be strong enough to even contribute something significant to the circle

 

Suldam are almost like Wilders in their channeling potential. We saw that once Nyneave started trying to actively channel, she was strong but not near her potential. That took a bit of time, even though it was forced. Suldam do not actively channel as much as a Wilder would, so they would be behind.

 

Now granted, now that Rand has LTT's memories and history, he might know a few tricks. Particularly in using a circle to help train someone, but even so, I don't think using Tuon would be effective, even in trying to support the "binding the Nine Moons" theory. I don't see him forcing her into a circle either.....

Edited September 10, 201114 yr by Jemlin

Tuon.

 

 

would be so epic

Personally, I want Moiraine to be leading the circle because she is 1 of my all time fave characters from any series. Upon reading EotW for the 1st time and they all set out from TR I was thinking "ahh, so she's Gandalf." Then she says this (paraphrased) "If I have to kill you three I will."

 

Gandalf got nasty!!!

Tuon.

 

I don't think Tuon would fit, there are too many things to have to do before she could even help:

1. convince her to actively channel

2. Open up her ability enough and train her so that she can open up to a circle and hold the source.

3. Give her time to be strong enough to even contribute something significant to the circle

 

Suldam are almost like Wilders in their channeling potential. We saw that once Nyneave started trying to actively channel, she was strong but not near her potential. That took a bit of time, even though it was forced. Suldam do not actively channel as much as a Wilder would, so they would be behind.

 

Now granted, now that Rand has LTT's memories and history, he might know a few tricks. Particularly in using a circle to help train someone, but even so, I don't think using Tuon would be effective, even in trying to support the "binding the Nine Moons" theory. I don't see him forcing her into a circle either.....

 

When you think about it, we have been given precious little information as to Tuon's thoughts reguarding the whole matter. She has been training damane a long time and is quite dedicated to the task.

 

What she knows and doesn't know about channeling has been largely skirted arond, I think there could be a surprise or two waiting in the wings.

 

Darren; I completely agree! I think I said it earlier too, I LOVE her! can't wait for her part in aMoL!

 

'Gandolf got nasty,' LOL

Heh! Fortuona leading the circle tru the domination band would be epic! Haha! Then Rand using Calandor and Moiraine her acrobat Angreal.

I don't see any need to use the dom band here. Rand is quite willing to use Callandor in a circle, knowing that it would mean a woman in charge, and he trusts Nyn enough to help him. I don't think he'd have any problem with Tuon either, at least not once Mat has, er, had a word with her.. Narishma didn't need the dom band either.

Suldam are almost like Wilders in their channeling potential.

Tuon is not your average sul'dam. She does the channeling herself through the link; most sul'dam have to tell the damane what to do. She never even tried to deny that she could see the weaves. Most sul'dam take years to develop that 'affinity'; Tuon is only nineteen, but she has deliberately honed her 'affinity' to a degree we've not seen with any other sul'dam. (She might even be a late sparker; they re-test sul'dam every year until they turn twenty-five.)

Suldam are almost like Wilders in their channeling potential.

Tuon is not your average sul'dam. She does the channeling herself through the link; most sul'dam have to tell the damane what to do. She never even tried to deny that she could see the weaves. Most sul'dam take years to develop that 'affinity'; Tuon is only nineteen, but she has deliberately honed her 'affinity' to a degree we've not seen with any other sul'dam. (She might even be a late sparker; they re-test sul'dam every year until they turn twenty-five.)

 

I'm having a hard time remembering an instance in the book where Tuon channels through, or says she channels through, the link, rather than having the Damane do so. Can you point me in the direction of where you are getting this?

 

I'm not saying Tuon is an impossible choice, I just don't think she is the "likely" choice given the time available to the story line. She is an exceptional woman, but she seems very traditional when it comes to Seanchan ways, and slow to change (even though she is showing some change and adaptation). I think it would be a bigger leap for her to openly channel with Rand in a link. Unless he forced her into it....but to do so, she would have to be beyond the "cusp" of almost channeling that was used to describe the other Sul'dam.

 

EDITUPDATE: Okay, I tried to do a little background catchup on Tuon and about the only solid hint I can find to her actively channeling herself, through the link, is in the Circus scene, where she is in the Wagon with Mat and is confronted by Joline and Teslyn. She seems to manually shield the others and attempt something on Mat that surprises her. The assumption seems to be that she does this herself since she doesn't verbally command anyone else to do anything. So, it's a good assumption. My only problem with this is that, aside from the super-girls (mostly Nyneave) channeling actively through the A'dam link, we haven't seen any Sul'dam do this and reflect on it in their own POV. We also don't know if this tips them over the "cusp" of almost channeling that was observed. So again, I say it might still take too much convincing and work to get her able to join a circle. But hey, stranger things have happened =]

Edited September 13, 201114 yr by Jemlin

Why would we think that other sul'dam do it differently? They are linked with the da'mane with control of the link, of course they direct the flows, not the da'mane.

Probably, only high level suldam are able to do that. (control the weave directly, probably those "der" suldam). Most of the time the suldam only "give permission" to damane, and the damane direct the actual weaves. (see Egwene's POV earlier on tGH)

Why would we think that other sul'dam do it differently?

Because they can't. In TGH Renna has to ask Egwene to do things; she doesn't just channel through the link. The sul'dam has to ask Elaida to demonstrate the gateway weave for Tuon. Etc. Every sul'dam-damane interaction we've seen supports the idea that they don't control the flows because they're just not that talented. Tuon does it naturally.

 

They are linked with the da'mane with control of the link, of course they direct the flows, not the da'mane.

Apparently it's only that simple if you actually understand what's going on (like Nynaeve did when she channeled using Moghedien's power). You probably have to develop this 'affinity' before you can actively control the Power through the link.

Personally, I'd love for it to be Logain or, even better (since I want Logain to go be awesome alone) let that spineless lapdog Narishma be the third...with Rand leading the circle and the other man channeling through Callandor. Cadswallop said that it wasn't safe for a man to use unless he was in a circle because there is no buffer - to make a circle of three, all he needs is one woman, not two, and as long as Rand isn't the one channeling through Callandor, the lack of a buffer will not matter any more than it would with a woman leading the circle. That said, my guess is that the bitch, Egwene, is going to insist on doing it and leading the circle so she can claim she beat the DO herself.

 

I might be wrong but two things; 1) Doesn't the prophecy state that it would be Rand and 2 women? 2) I'm pretty sure a circle can't have more men than woman. Can anyone confirm?

 

That is my understanding as well; I think it is from the companion book, but don't have it available at the moment.

I think Moiraine's 3 Gifts from the Foxes were

 

1) the angreal

2) knowledge of how to seal the Bore

3) knowledge of how to weave saidin

 

 

I don't think so. I distinctly remember Moiraine "clawing" the Angreal from Lanfear's hand. Also she would have been smart enough to "wish" for Lanfear's strength, particularly with foreshadowing from the rings in Rhuideean (where she learnt about her impending vist to the snake's/fox's realm).

 

Mind you, I don't disagree with point 2 except that maybe she wished for Lanfear's knowledge instead of and/or power.

 

Would have been a waste, seeing as she just would have had that strength drained away. Asking for the angreal (which she did) is much smarter considering what the Finns were about to do to her.

 

I know I'm assuming here that she knew what her fate at the hands of the Finns was to be but I think it's likely.

 

Quote from TSR6 pg 134 paperback

The Aes Sedai winced and threw up her hands. "You three rush in blindly where Lan and a hundred Warders would tread warily. Why do you think i have not stepped through? Days ago I could of asked what Rand must do to survive and triumph, how he can defeat the forsaken and the Dark One, How he can learn to control the power and hold off madness to do what he must."

 

From this quote i think this is a strong froshadowing of the likely questions she asks. Although we know she asked for the angreal so the question is what did she decide to scrap or change/re word because all three listed assumed questions have strong merit because of the wording.

Those were quite similar to the questions Rand asked:

 

How to cleanse saidin: The answer was a riddle that Herid Fel says "stated sound principles in both high philosophy and natural philosophy."

 

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

We don't know what his third question was, though others have pointed out that the Aelfinn may have treated Q2 as two separate questions.

 

But Moiraine was held by the Eelfinn, who don't answer questions, but give / sell items. If Mat's transplanted memories can be regarded as 'items'!

Edited November 2, 201114 yr by FarShainMael

I wrote my above quote when i was sleepy, those are her three questions i believe, too the snakes, we only know one of the things she received from the foxes was the angreal. The other 2 things we will find out in book 14 I am sure.

 

Also i think the three wielders will be Rand/Norishma Moraine and Alivia, or Nynaeve. I think that Norishma is an option in case Callandor is used against Rand to kill him to separate the link with Moridin.

This is my two cents on the matter.

Aviendha's name seems to rarely show up in discussions like these. The sealing of the bore will require absolute trust or irreplacable knowledge. Aviendha,Moraine,Elayne, Nynaeve, and to a smaller extent Egwene are people Rand can implicitly trust. Even Rand at his Darkest would still have trusted Elayne, Aviendha,Moraine and Nynaeve. Moraine,Cyndane, and in very unlikely but possible circumstances Tuon, and Talene may posess knowledge that no one else can replicate. Cyndane has knowledge of the original bore, Moraine her knowledge from the Finn's. Talene has experience with weaves that no Aes Sedai can match from her Windfinder training, and Tuon could feasibly have knowledge garnished from centuries of damane training and royal family knowledge. I think Tuon is the longest shot and Talene would be a close second.

 

What hangs me up the most is that a woman is supposed to direct the flows. It would be in some narrow respects anticlimatic if Rand is basically an observer for the pinnacle event of the series. That is what makes me look to Aviendha as a likely participant, something with the nature of the Bond will come into play for the circle. I almost feel like it will be Cyndane,Aviendha and Rand in the Callandor circle.